Salvia Challenge!

;) I'd love to have ya MM... boulder would be a good fit for someone like yerself..... Austin sounds interesting however

hahaha dont worry im not coming your way any time soon

ehrm... not right now but hopefully soon!

Damn, cool. You guys hiring?

yeah- especially in retrospect... I'd do it again in a heartbeat - so good! I'm running a coffee shop right now, gelato isn't that far fetched for the future to be honest

hahaha oh man, was that a good job?

I know a lot... I honest to God was a Gelato maker a few years back

what do you know know about ice cream god damn it!

Eagle brand condensed milk makes THE smoothest ice cream!

and son!
http://politics.freesitenow.com/basilmarceauxjr/
http://politics.freesitenow.com/basilmarceauxjr/page2.html
read the 2nd page....I'm sure IE and Jams can both get behind the basil's

and son!
http://politics.freesitenow.com/basilmarceauxjr/
http://politics.freesitenow.com/basilmarceauxjr/page2.html
read the 2nd page....I'm sure IE and Jams can both get behind the basil's

speaking of politics: I found a guy we can all agree with
http://politics.freesitenow.com/basilmarceauxforgovernor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rykcxc5dIts

Thanks QC. I'll maybe maybe try a higher temp lighter if I decide to partake again

careful, unkle: it didn't do much to me the first few times either, and then #@&%!ING BAM!

it helps to use one of those crack torch type lighters and a bong, btw. apparently the active ingredient has a fairly high boiling point.

good point: I tried the tea and would recommend that to the 30 plus crowd for a funner reaction!

no doubt, and it won't stay lit if you can figure out how to roll it.

I don't see what the big deal is. Its just this moisture in our mouth that helps us swallow. Everyone has it.

alright: I tried the stuff and it really honestly didn't have much effect except for that weird feeling and that uh-oh I don't know where this is going but no alien worlds or vivid stuff everyone else sees. It is a good trip however and felt like I got in touch with a inner part of the soul. Good stuff: recommended to any experience psychonauts. Highly recommended.

I got all those too.. but I dont name them, go figure

I answered every one honestly and seriously. Maybe that's insane? They did get pretty stupid. I thought it was going to nail me when I confessed to talking to inanimate objects, animals, plants and myself.

nuff sed

dude, 176 questions? i've ended relationships for less than a quarter of that!

if you'd gone down another 10 questions you would've seen the questions about people to scared to finish QC - I think that qualifies you in the serial killer range

i stopped answering those dopey questions after about 20, and that makes me more sane than all of you.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/are-you-insane/question-588391/

19.318181818181817
Most indubitably not insane.

NICE! Jams: that definitely makes you more insane. :) I'm guessing QC and IE would both be at the 50 mark and Singme and buyer would be picked up and given thorazine after the test.

22.15909090909091

30.681818181818183% Does that make more or less insane?

Foot note on the term "communism". While I stated the "communism" has become to mean the same as "totalitarianism", I was refering to the vernacular. However, this weekend I read and insightful and scholarly piece on China's Communist party in the Wall Street Journal. The terms "communism" and "communist" were never used in the article to denote an economic system, only in reference to the totalitarian regime, which is a ruling party of market capitalists.

I'd like to see everyone post their scores on this sanity test http://www.penddraig.co.uk/pen/tests/sanity.htm I got a 18% but I could probably go higher depending on my answers...... I'm guessing most of us would be completely off the charts in all honesty

I think those people who keep saying that I am paranoid are just out to get me. They may be sabotaging my posts, as well as taking down the country. Triple posts rule.

I think those people who keep saying that I am paranoid are just out to get me. They may be sabotaging my posts, as well as taking down the country.

think

I those people who keep saying that I am paranoid are just out to get me.

BIRATCHES! I tell you they are BIRATCHES!

BIRATCHES! I tell you they are BIRATCHES!

Babar: they're all BIRATCHES!

I never saw the guy again but I heard he developed some sort of stomach cancer within a year.

and what happened after he smoked the mold?

My favorite turtle was Chip Douglas.

Raphael is my favourite turtle ever (Eastman and Laird pre-kiddy TV era Turtles i.e)

i like turtles.

I met a guy in Germany in 1972 who put a penny in a banana peel and let it sit for a couple of months. He then sc#@&%!d the mold off the penny...dried the mold...and then smoked the mold.

"And don't forget: for "conservatives", a socialist is someone who they do not agree with." I can't argue with that.

"Socialism has come to be synonymous with totalitarianism. Communism too." Quite an understatement that ...has come to be? Was John the Baptist a card carrying member? So for most of our known history, socialism has not really been socialism? Freedom not freedom? Day not day, night not night?

The Essenes did practice communal living. But they were rooted in the Jewish traditions that Paul argued Christians were no longer bound to. I don't think anyone can state with certainty that the Essenes were the rightful perfect manifestation of Christ teachings or were his sanctioned church.

Ok, I got to put the keypad down. I cannot allow myself to get drawn into this again. Anybody got any recent good drug stories? I had a roofer up on my house recently.

I like saliva.

It's just like deja vu

It's just like deja vu

And don't forget: for "conservatives", a socialist is someone who they do not agree with. Take Obama. Find one actual socialist party member who think anything about the Obama agenda even remotely overlaps the agenda of the American Socialist party. And I learned this at a conservative web sites. Some conservatives are actually intelligent enough to realize that misusing the term only means when it really shows up, no one will recognize it.

And don't forget: for "conservatives", a socialist is someone who they do not agree with. Take Obama. Find one actual socialist party member who think anything about the Obama agenda even remotely overlaps the agenda of the American Socialist party. And I learned this at a conservative web sites. Some conservatives are actually intelligent enough to realize that misusing the term only means when it really shows up, no one will recognize it.

No, I am not a socialist and communist, but the doesn't mean I don't think the concepts are without their places.

I hate the terms communism, socialism, etc. They have become completely meaningless. Socialism may be the most abused term in history (right up there with the word "Christian". Socialism has come to be synonymous with totalitarianism. Communism too. Think, China is now a leader in world-wide capitalist markets, yet they are still called a communist regime. Not because any real communism is going on, but because the totalitarianism never left.

True communism? See the Israeli kibuttz.

Jesus may not have been a commie, but for sure John the Baptist was. And surely the first century Christians were. From each according to his ability, to each according to his or her need. Almost every America family follows this, especially poorer familities.

The sad fact is the first nation to call itself "socialist" was a horrible series of dictatorships with notion of conquest and domination. Nothing about the USSR was really ever about socialism. Sort of like "freedom" in America.

"A man's admiration for absolute government is proportionate to the
contempt he feels for those around him." Tocqueville

Profundity strikes.

Like Bratty sez an you don't mess with Bratty

I like music more tho.

I can dig him

Jesus was way cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUrqaJZH-04&feature=related

I agree. I think he was a bit of a hippy and while Im not sure he's participate in our threads, I"m sure he'd get some good feedback. Eh, while it's hard not to be corrupted, I like the messages he send man.

I really do like the alleged teachings of Christ, and alleged they are as faith means having to take someone else's word for it, just like history, you have to trust that it happened and wasn't media manipulation by those who won.
Faith isn't the domain of just religion.

When recording went to 30 ips, it was a big improvement with a smoother sound. But still, many hardcore recorders swore by 15 ips because it had a larger punchier low end.

Tom Waits is my high priest. I think he makes some of the best music ever made. But there are other fizzers who can do the Waits thing way better than I could ever. Same with industrial.

It bothers me that people might be persuaded to communism through Christ. I think I can explain why this is wrong in very simple, yet certain terms that anyone would understand and agree with. Sound too good to be true? Maybe. I ain't gonna junk up the forum with biblical debate. It was bad enough debating politics. So I will provide an explanation via a link soon. That way, if you want to read it you can, or not. It really is simple.

I like Jesus, seemed a nice fella...most folk forget he was Jewish tho.
That's why I don't think any True Christian IS a true Christian, love the man, embrace his faith, makes sense,

as far as the speed analogy: I think I can relate, more like the reel to reel where recording at twice the speed can produce a smoother sound? Interesting bizarre analogy sir.

When you speak: I imagine a voice of a prophet, that's somewhere inbetween Les Claypool and Tom Waits. You guys should do a industrial style track using this dialogue as a diatribe, spoken word thing yo..

..oh, and to state that, Jesus was a communist (or promoted communist values), is to have a fundamental misunderstanding of Christianity. The often quoted scripture can easily be misinterpreted if one fails to recognize the context under which it occurred.

I think slow is faster. Let me explain. I have these 70mm 88A Abec-11 Grippins on my cruising stick. Those big old mushy things are fast even at the park. My street is really steep. If I cut it loose it hits mach speed in about 10'. As a result, at the lower end of my street which lacks any kind of run out, I totally have to keep this thing reined in. I can pull out a stick with slower tires and let it run a little more and thus, go faster. Does this make sense or am I just talking out of my head?

I love the controversy. It's going to be like my version of the nfl watching everyone go at it. I need to read more about some of the poli sci stuff, but I find the current bashing to be highly entertaining. I crack up at the Obama/nobama/bamacare fear mongers too. Like we're really gonna euthanize em before they're 50? Hmmmm

Unk: This is THE year for indepenants. I think you find more moderate Republicans a lot more following Crist's lead in Florida and run as an Indpendent. We can thank the Tea Party for using the primaries to out anyone not their brand of "conservative"

One pundit predicted that John McCain will run as an Independant in November.

i don't know... doug gillard gets to dj, too? he's gonna play all that crap from gillard-era gbv.

on another note, here's one for you QC! (in case you haven't heard about it)
http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=122522107761256
could be fun, could be a train wreck.

who else can cheer me up, make me jam and laugh uncontrollably?

I'll have to go to real bars with real people and bands, and I don't get to call em douche bags

what's the point?

So that said: how do you save this site QC?

i don't think i come off scary at all.

yeah yeah - you know: you don't really come off as scary as I think you think you do. Sometimes (and this is just me) I think of everbody as sock puppets with foul mouths. That probably doesn't really come off too well, but it makes it a fun site to read.

QC - in your case however I think you come off like a badass lawyer muppet.

probably. maybe you need some time in the woodshed.

Sorry - I didn't think you'd really respond. Do I have to think of something?

Maybe you need some time outdoors with some butterflies and rainbows?

what way? elaborate, you #@&%!ing coward.

hey Qualcomm: you know what your problem is?

Neither do I but I'm just asking...I think you went to the woodshed too much as a child or something? Was it the wild onions or sitting in time out in the crawlspace that got you this way? OY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3CZYbIPCPo
I misquote

Yeah, i'm agreeing with you on all those points. I've been reading things from this list since 10 am: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_thinking-related_topics
and also the list of fallacies. The key distinction for me is not being the guy jumping in the ocean like he thinks he makes the waves but being the guy out riding the waves that other people think they make. Surfs up!

there is only two ways to go. ha ha. come in off the dang old roof, ma!

Very thoughtful and generally true, (I think). You do seem to repeat yourself but that may have just been a posting error. I really don't want to get involved in this too much again so its nice to hear others that try to look at both sides. Instead of debating others points, maybe its a little more civil to just keep the conversation going.

I think you are correct in the the statement, "A group of people believe that it would be a sad world where they would feel guilty if not everyone had health care and why not start here on the path to utopia?" The left doesn't just state that, but from over here on the right, that's the way we perceive them thinking. The portrayal of the right thinking is a little off in one respect, from my point of view. Though some may object, its not the fact that people get stuff they don't deserve. I think everyone deserves the best of everything. In a true utopia we would all spend our lives doing those things that were most meaningful to us. But the true reality is this is just not possible. I think the problem we have with this is the fact that it (dependence) kills motivation, the incentive to do truly exceptional things.

One of the oldest philosophical questions (actually two ancient philosophers, both asking the same question, one longer and more involved and the other short and succinct) was, how shall we live together? This is the heart of the debate. Is it really wrong to desire utopia? From my point of view there is only two ways to go. One is a willing transformation of the spirit of men. The other requires a forced compliance. That damn reality of the nature of man keeps buggering things up. Thoughts?

thats a great one sput, thats something to figure out eh?

I behold not (hopefully) I'm going pretty much all through my eyes and you should too (as far as I can tell). I tell myself to exist in my opinions knowing they are fallacy in some (usually major) degree. Anything you consider true is subjective despite how you feel about it. It's regarding your hypothesis as hypothesis and not getting so #@&%!ing worked up over it when someone disagrees with you. I'm working on it haha.

This healthcare debate is dumb. none of you idiots know whats going to happen as a result of this bill. as it moves along it will be amended over and over and over and over to 'improve' it or 'fix' it depending on if you supported it initially or not. plenty of other counttries have socialized healthcare and the stigma of long lines and bad doctors is generally not true. However the fear that such a big socialization will lead to more dependence and less independence (citing fdr's social programs that are characterized the same way but mostly on principle becuase the system has people taking advantage of it) seems somewhat legitimate on first glance. All this crap seemed legitimate to me until I consider this: The argument of the average american is one of principle not facts. A group of people believe that it would be a sad world where they would feel guilty if not everyone had health care and why not start here on the path to utopia? The other side feels threatened by the idea that people would potentially be given so much for doing nothing at all and that their rights to make choices is being marginalized by government interference AND AS A REAL HARDWORKING AMERICAN CITIZEN I HAVE RIGHTS TO COMPLETE FREEDOM AND WHEN MY GRANDFATHER CAME TO THIS COUNTRY AND WAS POOR HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY HAND OUTS TO HELP HIM ALONG THE WAY AND IT IS HARD WORK AND GUMPTION LIKE THIS THAT MADE AMERICA GREAT.

And then there's me (and others) who are particularly useless because we point out fallacy as though being further away from being wrong is closer to being right.

So what now? Who cares. This crap is for the birds. I'll let you figure it out and tell me what to do and play the hand I'm given to best suit what it is that I feel like doing while trying not to get in hot water with whoever got the biggest guns and the most money and the best human interest story for the best rhetoric and the most noble and righteous storefront where I could go to eat bull#@&%! so I can have the biggest #@&%! eating grin when I leave but don't go anyhow becuase I eat enough of my own #@&%! to already have a #@&%! eating grin about how I eat local #@&%!.

What do you think?

thats a great one sput, thats something to figure out eh?

I behold not (hopefully) I'm going pretty much all through my eyes and you should too (as far as I can tell). I tell myself to exist in my opinions knowing they are fallacy in some (usually major) degree. Anything you consider true is subjective despite how you feel about it. It's regarding your hypothesis as hypothesis and not getting so #@&%!ing worked up over it when someone disagrees with you. I'm working on it haha.

This healthcare debate is dumb. none of you idiots know whats going to happen as a result of this bill. as it moves along it will be amended over and over and over and over to 'improve' it or 'fix' it depending on if you supported it initially or not. plenty of other counttries have socialized healthcare and the stigma of long lines and bad doctors is generally not true. However the fear that such a big socialization will lead to more dependence and less independence (citing fdr's social programs that are characterized the same way but mostly on principle becuase the system has people taking advantage of it) seems somewhat legitimate on first glance. All this crap seemed legitimate to me until I consider this: The argument of the average american is one of principle not facts. A group of people believe that it would be a sad world where they would feel guilty if not everyone had health care and why not start here on the path to utopia? The other side feels threatened by the idea that people would potentially be given so much for doing nothing at all and that their rights to make choices is being marginalized by government interference AND AS A REAL HARDWORKING AMERICAN CITIZEN I HAVE RIGHTS TO COMPLETE FREEDOM AND WHEN MY GRANDFATHER CAME TO THIS COUNTRY AND WAS POOR HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY HAND OUTS TO HELP HIM ALONG THE WAY AND IT IS HARD WORK AND GUMPTION LIKE THIS THAT MADE AMERICA GREAT.

And then there's me (and others) who are particularly useless because we point out fallacy as though being further away from being wrong is closer to being right.

So what now? Who cares. This crap is for the birds. I'll let you figure it out and tell me what to do and play the hand I'm given to best suit what it is that I feel like doing while trying not to get in hot water with whoever got the biggest guns and the most money and the best human interest story for the best rhetoric and the most noble and righteous storefront where I could go to eat bull#@&%! so I can have the biggest #@&%! eating grin when I leave but don't go anyhow becuase I eat enough of my own #@&%! to already have a #@&%! eating grin about how I eat local #@&%!.

What do you think?

And why behold you the mote that is in your brother's eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye?

Excellent post! I see your confirmation bias and raise with cognitive dissonance!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

I was listening to a back episode of the Jesus Christ show the other night. A caller called in with a political agenda, (possibly a Ron Paul supporter as am I). Jesus shut the caller down. He stated that he (and spiritual matters) were to be the shows agenda. Jesus said that you should change a mans heart first and then the proper politics will follow. I think that is what I first tried to do earlier in this thread. My analogies of puking and Jiminy Cricket were meant to be discussions on morality. From there it lead to why Christianity shouldn't be banned from the government. I learned (among other things) that the Pledge of Allegiance didn't include the words, under god, until the 50s'. AS far as political debate, I still think I could win given enough time, which I don't have. But what is more important? Winning debates or changing minds? I certainly had veered off the course of attitude changing. I'm sick of political debate. I just want to see our country prosper for everyone. I think most of us agree that we are headed for a downturn. The other side thinks my side is playing that up and fear mongering. We will see. We also disagree on the cause and cure. I respect sing because he takes a stand and sticks with it. Our past disagreements have been about taste in music. He takes a more critical approach to critique where I tend go for positive reinforcement. I think this site needs both. If I spent the time wasted here in political debate reviewing submissions, the site would be better off. As I stated earlier, my life is now hectic. Things will settle down soon and maybe I can put these new audio interfaces I just got to work making music. And actually listen and review other submissions as well. Yeah, I'd love to drink a tall cool one with ya, sing. But I'll be cutting myself off before I start name calling again. Well, its almost 5am, time to head off to work. Its my day shift weekend.

And for the record, drunk or not, you made some good points.

IE, you're a smart dude with a lot to say.
We all have some drinks, and that's just what it is. My opinion is mine and yours is just the same. Im sure if we met in person we'd have laughs and beers, don't let an internet conversation keep you away from a place you love, and are well received. We've often butted heads but that's just because we have different points of view. No need to apologize sir, i threw the flame into a fire that just so happens to be based on a topic that generates quite a large amount of "Harumph" in any of us.

I still love you.

eh, I was just kidding, and to be honest, I'm not sure which one you were, you were both kind of melting in the picture to be honest :) DOH

I was drunk. Even my wife knew. She said, "you're drunk." So, really. I apologize to sing and will stay away from the forum for awhile. I have also cut back on politics in general. I'll get involved again come election day. spaz man, that picture was great. I just hope that I'm supposed to be the guy holding the bong.

Expose yourself...

With so many options in media, interaction and venues, you now get to choose what you expose yourself to.

Expose yourself to art, and you'll come to appreciate it and aspire to make it.

Expose yourself to anonymous scathing critics and you will begin to believe them (or flinch in anticipation of their next appearance.)

Expose yourself to get-rich-quick stories and you'll want to become one.

Expose yourself to fast food ads and you'll crave french fries.

Expose yourself to angry mobs of uninformed, easily manipulated protesters and you'll want to join a mob.

Expose yourself to metrics about your brand or business or performance and you'll work to improve them.

Expose yourself to anger and you might get angry too.

Expose yourself to people making smart decisions and you'll probably learn how to do it as well.

Expose yourself to eager long-term investors (of every kind) and you'll likely to start making what they want to support.

It's a choice if you want it to be.

QC vs. IE major rage captured in photos here.....
more on the epic debate at 10

http://crazycrackerz.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/wtf-was-in-this-#@&%!.jpg

IE: You're fine, I think. It's one of those penalties you get for posting sober under the same site that defines bowls of #@&%! and talking to carpets. This is an insane thread. There was no way to keep combating any one or anything for extended time without getting flustered. I see it as the death of many fixxers. Stay irrational and you will go far son.

I have always avoided any name calling. I just screwed up. I'm going to go away for awhile.

bada-bing, how you doin?

sing, mini sing, whomever, first of all, I am not a #@&%!ing brick. Though, I have grown more thick, I am the most introspective man you have ever met. yOu don't know the time I spent researching qc's chalenges. I just ran out of time to reply. So he wins because he states less facts and asks more questions? Truly, he is a worthy debater. I DID learn a lot from the research he inspired. And I did. It limited my time to compose a reply. But I only get a long weekend once a month. I gave all I had in that time. Working 12 hour swing shifts (every 2 weeks) I am usually working or trying to sleep. But damn, man. I have a life. Very much #@&%! is going on. My audio interface no longer had software that was compatible, so I have made an interface upgrade. This involves ripping my studio apart and rewiring. I am painting a newly built shed. Taxes are due. Today, they ripped out a wall between our kitchen and living room and ripped out all the kitchen cabinets. We got some sweet counter tops coming in. I recently won a bid on eBay for a baritone horn. I played one of these for 7 years in school band. This thing plays great. I can hit notes that were always way beyond my range. All that piano music gives me access to tons of tunes. I can play this thing all day and never repeat myself. Yeah, life is good. I have a job. IT physically and emotionally exhausts me, but its worth it. So, I can't answer every challenge he presents and I am a brick? #@&%! you. Truly. Listen here. I am a product of my elders. I have seen the values of my grand parents translated to my parents and have related my observations to my own experiences. YOu dumb #@&%!ing punk. Show some respect for the first time in your life. When I was your age, I was sure I could not define any definitive opinion. I had the clue that I didn't have a clue. When all the teens around me thought they had it figured out, I was questioning everything. But I have observed the opinions of my elders and weighed them against my own experiences in life. And I am getting older. I cannot refute an argument based on false premise. And I don't have the time. I was just trying to open some eyes. Reread my words. I challenge you But if you don't have the time, I understand. Listen. The liberals and progressives are the most aggressive and violent proponents of opinion that you will find. You say I am propagandized by talk radio. Dude, those guys just preach to the choir. They haven't changed qc's mind? And I know he listens all the time. I say, you both have been distorted by the mainstream media which has pushed an agenda for a long time. There is no way to prove this argument one way or the other. I wrote some words. These will live with you if you hear them. I repeat. I am not a brick. I weighed qcs words carefully. In a debate, if you can't reply, the other wins the point. What the #@&%! you bitching about?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/7572340/The-Geminoid-F-brings-us-a-step-closer-to-Bladerunner.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/science/12psychedelics.html

it buuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnns!

Newt tea bagging...now there's an image I didn't need.

I just hope Palin keeps doing woot dances and Newt keeps talking about tea bagging. There's a film for ya.

Oh yeah? Well, when the earthquake moves the pyramids and giants awake and spew forth from the ground and try to have sexual relations with our women, then. Then we'll see who is blind and who is paranoid. This is quite the blow. I thought sing worshiped the ground I dance on.

Holy #@&%!. A post worth reading, Who'd have thunk it!?
First of all i would just like to point out that this flagrant display of ignorance coming from IE is the EXACT reason i've not come back to this page until just now.
No matter what you say, no matter how eye opening or CORRECT it may be, it's like talking a wall. It's completely uninteresting and fruitless to try and hold a discussion with anyone (Digitally or otherwise) who doesn't think they have anything to learn. Some well written #@&%! here QC, fun to read.

I'm here, so i'll throw my two cents into the ring.
There's a lot of misinformation being flung around out there, so i try to stay on the sidelines of the political #@&%! and just learn as much as i can. Whenever i get frustrated about how things are, or don't necessarily understand I find it's best to educate myself as much as possible, in order to better understand what's going on instead of spouting off something i heard someone on a radio show or news program say.

To keep the overall view of Obama short, i'll say this:
It's #@&%!ing amazing to see the leader of our wold trying to put us in the good graces of countries who have been giving us the stink eye for years. How long during the bush Administration did we all bitch about "Our leadership doesn't represent us?" He's doin a better job than Bush, and a better job than you can do. So, deal with it.

As for Healthcare.
I wont get too deep on this, because I don't feel i understand the bill enough to stand on a soapbox about it with any kind of intelligent opinion that i didn't take from someone else, where i had heard that had a point of view that was somewhat coherent.

But i will say this. People bitch and bitch and bitch about how "I don't want my taxes to pay for others" bla bla bla, "I work too hard" bla bla
This BLOWS my mind.

Before anyone spoke a word of heal care reform wal mart was running a gamut on this country with health care, and im sure they weren't alone.

Wal Mart offered Health Care, but only a certain percentage of the employee's working there, the others were encourages to enroll into a medicare program (Ironically enough the pay received by wall mart is meager enough for someone to quality for this program)
Most of the employee's who enrolled, were granted health care.
Who pays for that? We do.
And ironically enough when the talks of this reform took place and someone in Wal Mart had a chance to browse the bill, all of the sudden they re-vamp they're medical program. Why? Because America was just about to have a REAL reason to get pissed off. I don't know the exact number but i can tell you we were paying more in taxes alone from making sure these wal mart employees got medical, than we would for this plan that's just passed. So, in that aspect, the bill forced some really positive changes.

Secondly, people bitch and bitch and moan about:
"So, i can go into the hospital and need some kind of expensive thing done, but some illegal can come in and he can get premium care with no dent on his credit?"
Not anymore folks, gotta be an American, So that takes care of that little issue as well.

All of that was explained just to say... People get so #@&%!ing caught up on what their side says they should say, or what they think their opinion really means (as if it #@&%!ing matters) I'm not saying i'm the smartest guy in the world, but open up your mind for #@&%!s sake, and have a spirited conversation where you can learn something, QC Is a perfect person for this (I used to think you were guilty of the same thing you're accusing IE of Qual, but on this thread you actually didn't show any of that characteristic, in agreeing when someone had something interesting and educated to say as a counter argument, applause to you sir)
No one wants to argue with a Brick wall, and no matter how smart or intuitive the person you're speaking with; When they reach the point where they feel they have nothing to learn from you, it's a conversation better suited to be flushed down a #@&%!ing toilet with the rest of that days' wasteful #@&%!.

whew, thank god. man, he had us going. that's one funny man. for the record, i would have voted for page 1700.

Good news everyone, it looks like Obama was really kidding about the reform! :)

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/UnNews:Obama_to_America:_%22April_Fools!%22

"You're probably wondering what's so funny. I'll tell you what's funny: The health care bill! The entire thing. It's one big, fat joke!

Think about it: Forcing everyone to buy insurance in order to lower costs? That's preposterous! It completely defies the law of supply and demand! Just saying it outloud reveals it's absurdity! Not to mention the whole concept borders on mini-fascism! And let's not forget the new regulations on insurance companies. Seriously, it's like I'm trying to keep prices up on purpose!

You remember when I said, "If you like your insurance, you can keep it"? Well, that's 100% true. Unless your cheapskate Scrooge of a boss decides to dump your sorry hiney on the government plan! By the way, that's my solution to fix the upcoming Medicare deficit: Expand it to everyone!

Oh my God, if only you could see your faces America! "

I vowed that my own personal rant was over. And it is. But here is someone else words. I have been a fan of Pat since those crossfire days. Here he defends the tea partiers against the media bias. Read it or don't. Its cool. http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=36257

wow, unk, no need to get all nasty about it.

I suspect at least a few of you were sober when competing, thus bringing the entire debate into question.

I find mental instability does me just fine, all of us in here in fact.

new rule?

new rule: I think the debate should continue but everyone should be at least at a base level of intoxication to level the playing field

trader joes has the garlic stuffed ones cheap. yum.

my martini is this.....gin of choice....large garlic stuffed olive.....done

Ha, I meant the ipa, but thanks for the recipe

yOu got the martimmie recipe? Don't accept any imitations. 2oz Burnetts dry london gin, 1/2oz Burnetts vodka, 1/2 dry vermouth over ice. After 1 minute strain over two small sour cocktail onions and a large olive stuffed to preference on a toothpick, 1 tbsp olive brine, 2 splashes of angostura bitters in an appropriate chilled glass. Yum.

"Us that sip martimmies and double gravity IPA's can go back to that" ...
way ahead of you : )

qc, Sorry, I ruined your view of your favorite song of mine. I still feel the same about your stuff, (or what I think is yours) That Alex Chiltony sounding constant contact is great. And there is another I really like.

ok, I quit. If I have come full circle as you say, there is nothing left to try. Because you can not see what appears front and center of me, you call me paranoid, and I call you blind. We'll leave it at that because time will tell. When the time comes, nobody here will have forgotten what the other had said. I do have a gentle voice, because I am a gentle man. I am passionate, but not prone to violence. I witnessed the violence of attitudes portrayed in music during the days of hardcore and punk rock. Most of these disaffected youth were of middle class origin. It was a hoax. These kids did not recognize how good they had it. I shouldn't judge, maybe many were from broken homes. Those things can wreak havok. I guess in that regard I might have had it better. I just look around me and I like what we have in this country. If I hit the lottery, you know Jeni and I would hit all fifty states in a RV. I think so much of our lives is filled with pointless clutter that prevents people from being able to do for themselves. So, as great as it is, there are always forces that hold us back a bit. As great as it is, I think the potential harbored in individuals given free rein to pursue their dreams is almost unimaginable. I am saddened (I'm being fair) by what (I) perceive as change in the wrong direction. That's all there is to it. The rant is over. You guys that smoke stuff I had never heard of can go back to that. Us that sip martimmies and double gravity IPA's can go back to that. I'll get back to trying to knock your socks off with rockin' new tunage.

that's cool, Chris. just let me know when it's ready. that demo you sent sounded pretty cool...

It seems to me you think that the things you believe are true. Big mistake.

Hey poolhouse sorry for keeping you waiting on this track, I've been really busy and haven't been able to get a really solid performance out yet.

it's just weird to hear through the media about all of the armageddon people freaking out all of the time. i just don't get it at all and the lengthy arguments you've laid out IE, just don't hold any water as far i can tell, and think qc pointed that out over and over.
i'm pretty happy with the way things are going these days, especially after the prior administration. i'm happy with the progress. guess that makes me a "progressive" = communist.

well, i am walking away from this, for real this time. if you ever write something worth answering, i will. but i don't see the point in taking the time to completely discredit your baseless arguments, only to have you ignore my points and move on to some other long, baseless argument (and then circle back to the originally-discredited argument at some future point). it's quite tiresome! and it saddens me that the man behind the gentle voice that entreated me to accompany him on a krogering mission is so willfully deluded.

PH: dude, bull#@&%!. I'll clean his clock when I get the time. Misinformation? Grow up. Innuendo, look, Obama ain't going to shout from the rooftops, I am a communist. It won't sell here. GUilt by association, it's not JUst his associations. It's his actions and the words he speaks. Fear mongering, what is your definition of socialism if not government control of the markets? YES. I believe in American exceptionalism. YOu have to have been raised in a cave not to. Free markets incentivize innovation. The best drugs come from here. (i mean the pharmaceutical kind) The best technologies come from here. Socialism rewards the lazy and unproductive. I just heard Kathleen Sebelious (secretary of health and social services) say they plan to cut drug company profits by 90 billion $. What business is it of the government how much profit a company makes? There goes the R&D. The exceptional drugs and technology will be gone. The same applies with all fields. qc would have you believe that Obama is just another (black) democrat. And I am a propagandized racist. He refuses to accept the bias of main stream media. I don't see the point of analyzing everything Obama has said and done. The conclusions and trends are obvious if you are willing to do anything other than automatically discount them. I admit right now, I have been wrong. I have claimed that the argument over Obama is not racist. I have argued that his skin color matters nothing, its his ideology. If he were Biden, there would be the same response from the right. But this is a racist issue. The left brings it up every time. Its funny how the racist is always first to scream racism (see jesse jackson or ACLU) It is unthinkable to them that the first black president might be perceived as incompetent as Jimmy Carter. Wealth redistribution. The man that gets the benefits has no incentive to make his own, The man having his wealth redistributed says, what the point? My wife posted this comment on facebook. I reprint it without her permission. She gets it.

Ah, yes, the already critically short supply of primary care physicians and nurses -- not to mention clinical space, time, and other resources. And how many people are going to want to become health care providers now? It oughta be interesting! When my mom moved to The Netherlands, she was very excited about socialized... medicine, but soon grew to hate it. She said it would take weeks to be seen for common odds and ends, and that prescriptions are hard to come by because of all the government-mandated paperwork docs have to do. Many people don't seem to understand that **The Federal Government will soon be able to know everything about and regulate your body.**

Where is the spirit? Why has the left become butt buddies with the man? WE should demand the most from our government. They should do everything to assure every man has a chance of success. Trying to enforce equal outcome is immoral. Obama is pushing a socialist agenda. This is contrary to the things that have brought us success. These facts are irrefutable.

it's a weird thing and I dont reccomend it. The variety I had was from South America, and had a contact high from touching the flowers. Weird sensory perception, and hallucinations. Not a recreational thing.

We found it growing in the woods near a creek in Maryland. My dumb ass friend took a bunch home and made some kind of drink out of it. He was in the hospital for a week. He wasn't right to begin with, but he was more not right when he got back home.

Datura: I've got a bunch in the back yard. It'll leave you buzzing for about a week :) I think this is a "public photo" http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3439128&id=687792501

It's nasty #@&%!, my mate is one amazing guitar player but any conversation longer than five minutes tends to get surreal...

Ah....Jimson weed. It grows up and down the East Coast. I had a friend back in the 70's who came close to #@&%!ing himself into oblivion with that stuff.

My friend nearly killed his dumb self on datura...never did fully come back right in the head...

well, i was enjoying reading these posts on my commute.

well, if you're done, i declare qualcomm the winner.

knock-out blow:

"your arguments are all based on misinformation, innuendo, fear-mongering, and charges of guilt by association."

should it be? i guess it's gone from simply nonproductive to counterproductive.

somehow, i doubt it.

is it over?

:) IE: don't worry about it. I think this debate here isn't my thing. If we got back to a production or a gearslutz type argument I am sure I'd be more in my element. Good luck to all of you.

qc, I am glad that after I insulted your guy you came out of pouting to thoughtfully continue. I appreciate the things you bring to this debate because you eloquently express the opinions of those I most disagree with. This allows us to get right to the heart of things. Having learned my lesson, I am trying to discourse in a more literal manner. I hope this is helping. But my once a month long weekend is now over and I must return to work. I guess I lose by default any points that I can't counter. I just am out of time. (Literally, down to the minute). I have not yet studied, but have read your response below. I would love to answer each individual one as time permits itself. I'll get back when I can, I know all of fizzdom waits with baited breath.

Bratty; I really don't like being put in the position of apologist for George Bush. But consider this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&feature=related

see what you did there? after i complained that your arguments are all based on misinformation, innuendo, fear-mongering, and charges of guilt by association, you posted another rant full of same (minus the guilt by association this time, so thanks for that i guess).

"As a President he pays greater respect to our enemies than he does our allies."
how? what has he done specifically that supports this assertion, and how does it differ from presidents past? are you just talking about israel? please don't tell me you're talking about any of the bowing "incidents" trumped up by fox et al.

would alienating allies include referring to a huge section of western europe as "old europe," as the past administration did? or dragging our staunchest ally into a disastrous war, as the past administration did? because i don't remember any similar complaints from you or the tea party about the past administration. you do realize why obama was given the nobel prize, right? that was basically a big congratulations from our european allies for not being george w. bush.

"But I DO think that an argument can be made that he sees a different America. He sees fault where others see greatness."
so you think it's wrong to see any faults with america? we've made some mistakes and been guilty of terrible wrongs. you do know that, right? like slavery. that was a fault, wouldn't you agree? is it okay to acknowledge that? that said, you're nuts if all you hear from obama is fault-finding with america. his campaign's basic theme was that we have always overcome obstacles and eventually done the right thing, and we can do it again.

"But here is a difference. I think there is an argument to be made that Obama believes America is guilty of Imperialism. I think he harbors shame for that."
we have been guilty of imperialism. vietnam; the cia assassination of allende; the overthrow of the iranian govt in the 50s; various other "actions" in latin america. these were all patently imperialist acts. i'm not saying we did it for wealth or land acquisition, but those aren't the only motivations for imperialist actions. how would you characterize these things? and if you accept that these things happened, what is the appropriate response, if not shame? it's okay to be ashamed of your country now and then. to not be would be to imply that our government has always behaved perfectly.

that's what i find especially hypocritical about your position. on the one hand, you think the federal government is inept, power-hungry, and tending toward despotism. on the other hand, you won't accept criticisms of our government's past policy decisions. and if you do accept criticisms of past policy decisions, then you have to accept criticisms of americans in general, because we live in a democracy (yeah yeah, i know, it's a republic), and as such, are responsible for our government's policies. at least to some extent. right?

"He looks less with pride on our achievements and the problems we have overcome and more on the things we should be ashamed of."
unsupported opinion. he acknowledges what he sees as our mistakes because he's interested in making us a more perfect union. what motivation could be more american than that?

"The progressive philosophy is not unknown to any of us. Their idea of social justice finds it immoral that one man should have more than another, regardless of the effort put forth to achieve those ends."
another unsupported opinion that happens to be wrong. i'm sure you could find some fringe commies who believe that, just as i could find some fringe right wingers who believe in secession (like sarah palin's husband, who belonged to one such movement in alaska).

"I drive by and those people are living their lives in broken down recliners on their front porches. BUt how many of those people still have big screens?"
this runs counter to your stated philosophy. as ron paul will tell you, those flat screens are the product of: 1) too-cheap money, borrowed from china; 2) cheap chinese labor; and 3) a lower class that doesn't know how/isn't encouraged to save money.

"And I hold with respect those things that enabled our greatness. These are the very things Obama sees as the roots of social injustice."
vague. what things enabled our greatness?

"YOu only have to read Marx to understand how his ideas of social justice compare with Obama's."
i've read marx, and i don't think his ideas of social justice are all that comparable with obama's. again, innuendo and fear-mongering. he's not a communist. he's just a black democrat. settle down.

"And the rights response to this is anemic? Because we don't blow up buildings like leftist of the past?"
tim mcveigh. right winger. largest act of domestic terror in u.s. history. but yes, i do think your response is strangely anemic, compared to the purported threat. a maoist-marxist-friend-of-terrorists has taken possession of the white house! i'm being facetious, of course: i have little doubt that one of you loons is going to try something violent in the coming years. i'm confident that that shooting at the holocaust museum was just the opening act.

spaz, I'm sure I could find some agreement with what you just said, but I got to side with qc on this one. I haven't got a clue what you were trying to say. I'm hip to sipping a few brews with you dude. Sorry I left you out of that one. You strike me as the kind of guy who could appreciate some quality micro-brewing.

If I ran for office, I would probably have more of my past to worry about than associations.

Since I feel part of the whole statement was edited, here is the rest... As a President he pays greater respect to our enemies than he does our allies. He is motivated in this huge shift in power by an ideology that announces itself not by name, but through every action and word he says.

I don't believe I used the word hate in context with OBama. But I DO think that an argument can be made that he sees a different America. He sees fault where others see greatness. When Rudy blathered, you take that back, to Ron Paul, He was putting out the spin that Ron thinks that terrorist retribution is deserved and justified due to our meddling. I don't think Ron thinks we deserve retribution, he just merely stated that retribution is a consequence of being over there. Two very different things. I am for Obama bringing as many troops home as possible, but I am sure that now faced with the reality, even he realizes how difficult that is. But here is a difference. I think there is an argument to be made that Obama believes America is guilty of Imperialism. I think he harbors shame for that. And to stay on the subject, I believe he harbors shame for what can be seen as social injustice right here in America. He looks less with pride on our achievements and the problems we have overcome and more on the things we should be ashamed of. The progressive philosophy is not unknown to any of us. Their idea of social justice finds it immoral that one man should have more than another, regardless of the effort put forth to achieve those ends. But I can drive through my town and others (and I do with this thought in mind) and observe the beautiful communities people have made for themselves. I have seen the depressed areas. I have seen OHio after the recession of the 70s. I have witnessed how parts of Pennsylvania have struggled ever since the Japanese stole the steel markets. I drive by and those people are living their lives in broken down recliners on their front porches. BUt how many of those people still have big screens? The point is our poor do better than poor around the world. True, I know little of Europe. But I have traveled some through Asia and South America. And I come away with pride for my country. And I hold with respect those things that enabled our greatness. These are the very things Obama sees as the roots of social injustice. YOu only have to read Marx to understand how his ideas of social justice compare with Obama's. Obama doesn't have to flat out say it, (it would be political suicide) you only have to listen to his words and observe his actions. And the rights response to this is anemic? Because we don't blow up buildings like leftist of the past? Holy crap, the media is going ape#@&%! over the anger and vitriol. The republicans held to the man in opposition to this bill. The protests (initially) were spontaneous and heartfelt. They were not motivated by race but genuine ideological differences. I'm not sure what else we can do.

mmm beer. Let's all share a couple. Timmy: I don't want to discourage you. I am enjoying the lively debate and I will listen to anyone. You do a great spiel from your point and I think one of the weaknesses of the DEMs is that they don't want to listen work or villify the conservative sides. I see no point in alienating half the people in the country and don't believe they have any valid points. I hope that's not too "#@&%!brained".

Jams: I'd love to go more indendent, but it is frustrating. Do you think they'll ever have a chance of winning? I viewed the green party as a joke when Gore lost and it really kinda broke my heart when I talked to the indie crowd. W man! I know it's probably not Nader's fault but indie's seem like a distraction or a good way to infuse ideas into the main parties. Sharpton is the man I mean I love the pop aspect to politics at it's best. Some of these guys are a riot, but I wouldn't want to put any time behind them. That said I see the next election as a crazy hot mess.

*addendum: i don't believe wright hates america. i think he condemns certain things about our culture, and it's right and duty to do so.

i judge individuals on their ideological positions, not where they live. i can't help it if most of the teabaggers happen to be from "middle america." obama's from middle america. or if his residence in chicago disqualifies him, then bill clinton. either way, who #@&%!ing cares?

i don't like to resort to name-calling; i'd rather have a real argument, where each side acknowledges what the other says, and defends its own position logically. but when one side resolutely sticks to misinformation, innuendo, fear-mongering, and charges of guilt by association, that kind of argument cannot be had. i called your movement white trash partly out of anger, and partly as tit for tat: you are implying that obama hates america/is a maoist/is a domestic terrorist because he has associated with people who have at one time or another embraced those positions. well that's about as stupid as my saying that you must be a liberal: after all, you associate with hippies like babar and bratty. you actually like those dirty hippies! imagine what hay would be made of such associations by a scumbag opponent if you ever ran for public office. anyway, i hope with a little distance you can see how silly it is for you to parrot campaign year insinuations like that. if the right really believes that obama is a maoist terrorist america-hater, i have to say i find their response to his occupation of the white house a little anemic.

Thanks Babar, I have a mug set aside for you here at de casa da timmy.

Stop fighting? Look, this is debate. Obama says shut up and get out of the way. The dems say bend over and take it. Now even Bratty says, breath deep and suck. I understand his frustration. The dems won, why can't the repubs just give his ideas a chance? It's because his ideas once implemented will become essentially permanent. Bureaucracy is far easier to create than remove. Though there is precedence with social security and medicare, health care (and the auto industry) represent a government over-stepping its constitutional authority.

I have no doubt that these disagreements will not interfere with my friendship with Babar and his family. And I further doubt there would be any problem sharing beer with Bratty. I have been witness to most everything he has posted on this site for a few years. My assessment is that he is a thoughtful and compassionate person. Being wrong on political issues does not necessarily make a person a dirtbag. There are dirtbags on both sides of the aisle.

YOu think I like having to defend the ideas of douche-bags like Hannity? Even though he's right about 75% of the time? It makes me mad when they live up to the stereotype of republican bullies by shouting down their opponents rather than winning intellectual debate. The stereotypes can apply on both sides. I'd share a beer with qc, but I doubt we'd have much in common to talk about. He hates people, I love people. He loves government, I hate government. He also seems to carry some prejudice against so called middle Americans. Here in Cackalacky, I am stuck in the middle of it. Sure it kills me the way these people talk. they sound dumb as dirt. But let me tell you, they're not. I work in a company where I work with many people on a daily basis, black and white. If you are ever in an emergency or danger, these are people you want by your side. When my brother first moved here we had a bad hurricane. He went out in it to see if my folks were alright. He had trees fall in the road in front and in back of him. He was stranded. But some of those good old boys went out in the storm with their chains-saws and cleared the road for him to pass. When you live around and with people you can get a different perspective than the stereotypes suggest.

I have friends who believe as Jamsmith does. I tend to as well. But what's the point in fighting a battle that can't be won? Realistically, our only choice is to choose the lesser of two evils. I hope Babar's friends get their coverage. I hope mine gets cheaper. But the details have yet to be worked out. Pelosi says, once the bill is passed, we'll see what's in it. This struggle has not been about health care. The republicans have been shut out of the debate at every step. Its been about power and control.

IE is one of my favorite people to drink beer with.

Now stop fighting, grab a beer from Bratty's table (not HIS drink, mind) and lets see a little unity eh?

Everything the Democrats and the Republicans is a lie. Too many on each side thinks their party is the one telling the truth. But for the record, you will note that Republicans bring up places like England where healthcare is not always so great. Also note, they never mention France - the conservatives favorite dog to kick - because appearently the French are very satisfied with their single payer system

Everything in the Health Care billl could have been accomplished without spending the money the Democrats insist on.

Republican have good ideas,but they never pass legislation to implement them.

Democrats have good ideas and implement them in the most stupid and/or corrupt way possible

Vote Independent.

i'd like to think we could still all sit around a table and share a pitcher of beer (or 5) and leave all the political stuff in the trunk. in fact, i hope we can do just that someday soon.

ok ok so this post went from salvia to illegals to beer and politics to outright attacks and "grandstanding" in a matter of about 4 posts. How hilarious.... If I didn't know better I'd say there are some crazy people here.

I have known IE for many years and I can vouch that he is certainly not white trash.

I feel currently that the insurance companies and others in the health care industry have not sought to be competative or have looked for ways to contain costs. Profits are at the forefront of what they do. Profit is all fine and good....I love profit...but when hospitals charge $12 for a Tylenol, when insurance companies refuse claims based on pre-existing conditions, when drug companies sell the same drugs to Canada at 20% of what we pay....blah blah...I believe that is when government must step in and say the #@&%! has to stop. Do I like that is the case? Certainly not. I would rather the government not have to step in, but the industry has shown no willingness to change. Both Democrats and Republicans have protected the hands that feed them for way too long. We continually spend more and we get less.

I do hope that my friends who have not been able to get health coverage will soon be able to do so, especially my friends with the child who has a pre-existing condition. They have had to pay out of pocket for many years to keep their baby healthy, because of the messed up system that has been in place for many years.

White trash uprising? Wow. Talk about your broad strokes. That's a pretty big white trash problem America must have. No wonder we are so inferior to Venezeula.

...and so the government schemes to squash competition even more. Private industry will not be able to compete with a government that can print money out of thin air. I think we are all in agreement that things need changed. Our differences are in what role the government participates. I am generally for the minimizing of bureaucracies.

"Government has been turning out awesome kids from its schools lately, huh? That's why they should also monopolize healthcare? Both need to be private enterprises subject to market forces. THat is how costs are controlled. "

I was responding to that statement my friend. I agree that the industry along with government have colluded to not contain costs. They claim free market but in fact the current system is far from it.

"Obama has surrounded himself with people who ask that god damn America, ones that have tried to blow it up, self professed admirers of Mao, and thats not even going on to some other qualities of character elements he has surrounded himself with."

well, that tells me everything i need to know. have fun with rush, fox news, and your white trash uprising. over and out.

Ok, I am being overwhelmed here, being the sole voice of sanity and reason. The more comprehensive reply I have been working on will have to wait a bit. I am wasting my day on this.

Babar, exactly how do you mean market forces set cost in healthcare? Just because they are private enterprises does not mean they engage free market competition. If you go to the doctor for a bandaid, do you know how much that bandaid costs beforehand? How about a bandaid from doctor B? And do you even know how much it cost after the fact? What, it doesn't matter the insurance company is paying for it? How then do you shop for the best deal? I am also of the understanding that govt. regulation prevents proper competition amongst health insurance companies, such as owning insurance across state lines. The govt, the health administrators, and the insurance companies all collude to keep prices high. THey benefit, we lose. By the way, although health coverage is mandatory in Switzerland, it is mostly individually owned, personal, and portable. Screaming at me does not change the fact that the government is going to take over the health care insurance industry. They may say they aren't but they will. Yes, you are missing a few things. If you do not recognize Saul Alinsky's playbook in action, you need to read it. Where is the transparency that Obama has promised? The thug tactics are immediately transparent to me. Obama has surrounded himself with people who ask that god damn America, ones that have tried to blow it up, self professed admirers of Mao, and thats not even going on to some other qualities of character elements he has surrounded himself with. As a President he pays greater respect to our enemies than he does our allies. He is motivated in this huge shift in power by an ideology that announces itself not by name, but through every action and word he says. Yes, we already have our feet in the water as far as health coverage. The goal should be to eliminate the need for interference. Its in opposition to the constitution.

qc: where did I ever say I love state govt? Just because I know the constitution leaves many matters to the state? It seems to me corruption is occurring at all levels of govt. The repubs in my state may be getting an easier job because so many dems are in jail. The thing is, on a state level, if your govt sucks you can move. This is a free market idea. Diversity of govt encourages better govt.
I do agree capital punishment approaches a slippery slope. I was trying to compare apposing levels of justification. I could talk about innocent death. Where people die due to no fault of there own. Its actually fairly common.

Bratty, I enjoyed the parody of my favorite uTube video. Thanks. Also, I might add, democrat congress, chris dodd, acorn, barney frank. I am happy to take a deep breath, but I ain't sucking anything. This is fundamental to the quality of life we, and others after us, will share.
Why must you bring up a race argument? Why do some insist that race is an issue? In a country of in excess of 300b people, you can always find people who support anything. This is not a racist country. Not any more than it discriminates against fat, ugly, beautiful, old, young, short, or tall people. Oh, and by the way, some of my best friends are, and have been, dirty#@&%!inghippie leftists.

wow! Bratty: I am normally patronizing but you said what you said very well and pretty smartly IMHO..... or you said something that this dirty#@&%!inghippie gets anyway. I liked the zebracorn too

and not the other way around. choking hazard.

In the painfully recent past, Republicans threw jobs growth, gains to personal income, aggregate values of home equity, retirements and investments, educational achievement, and America's primacy on the the world stage over the cliff, into free-fall, and watched them all accelerate to terminal velocity while lining their pockets. The crimes were so enormous, so obvious, that the Republican brand itself was declared at risk of extinction, and (gasp) an African American was elected to straighten out the mess. And the whole time it was going on, we (the dirty#@&%!inghippie left) were told to suck it.

There has been more whining and hyperbole in the first year of this administration coming from the right then there was in the entire two terms of the last administration. And guess what? much to my own personal surprise, the country survived Bush/Cheney. Now things are going to be done differently for a while, in spite of the forces of obstruction. Elections are just around the corner and things will undoubtedly swing this way and that as people are pushed by different forces and consequences to vote however they do. But for now, I would offer the same advice to my fellow americans who occupy the ideological space to the right of center.

Take a deep breath, and suck it.

I'm just not seeing the whole socialist thing here. The government is not taking over the health care system, just hopefully putting some rules in place so folks who cannot get coverage can now get coverage. No more of this pre-existing condition crap. No more being denied coverage because you got sick. No more jacking up of rates so some dip#@&%! CEO can get a pay raise to $30 million a year. I repeat....the government is not taking over the health care industry. We will still be getting coverage from the same companies we have been getting coverage from. Karl Marx, Lenin and Mao are nowhere to be seen. Am I missing something here? THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT TAKING OVER THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY.

also, before i let your initial comparison go unanswered, you said: "The so called, pro choice crowd that decries the government intrusion into their right to dispose of pregnancies, is now all for government probing into any matter they deem as a health issue." exactly what government probing are you talking about? be specific, enough of these vague accusations. in order for the pro-choice position to be hypocritical, they would have to be advocating the govt curtailing other peoples' right to some legal medical procedure, like abortion. of course, they're not doing that. only the right wingers, the so-called individualists, are trying to curtail individual rights.

Tea Party...now the Coffee Party? I am forming the Beer Party.

if that's the root of the problem, elephant, how come switzerland--which has mandated insurance--has lower costs than we do? how come every country with such mandates have lower costs? weird! anyway, neither of us are even close to expert in these matters, so i'm content to drop it.

the dooziest quote from your latest rant has got to be this one: "Government has been turning out awesome kids from its schools lately, huh? That's why they should also monopolize healthcare?" um, despite what you may have heard from rush, hannity, et al, it's state and local governments that are largely responsible for K-12 schooling... that's right, the same state and local governments you sing the praises of in every other post.

as for the abortion issue, i don't consider a 3-month-old fetus an innocent child. i consider it a fetus. and if you dig a little bit, you'll find that many opponents of capital punishment oppose it because of the certainty that innocent people have been and will continue to be executed. those founding fathers you claim to revere so much designed our legal system around the concept of protecting the innocent at all costs, even that of letting the guilty go unpunished (or in this case, imprisoning them instead of killing them). me, i'm on the fence. some of these #@&%!ers deserve the gas, no doubt about it. i just don't trust the GOVERNMENT to determine that.

this is, well, you decide...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH5Eo0bn6zY&feature=player_embedded#

What I am getting at is that private enterprise and capitalism is wonderful as long as the folks running the companies don't #@&%! over people to make their money. If they can't do that then there must be some regulations in place to keep them from screwing us.

oh....and the financial whiz bangs that helped cause the economic crisis and then we bailed them out? The guys who decided they did such a really good job and needed some bonus money? I want the money I lost back...with interest.

My kid turned out OK coming out of the gubnit school system. But then she has awesome parents who actually give a #@&%!.

The health care system we have had has been controlled by the private enterprise system and costs keep going up at twice the rate of inflation or more. Obviously that is not working to contain costs. The government with the new system is not monopolizing the industry. Most of us will still be buying insurance from the same folks who run the industry now. There is no option for anyone or business to buy into a public option.

I must admit that I am not an economics expert, but the knowledge I do have indicates it will not be cost effective. A good portion of the excessive cost now is due to intrusive government oversight. The root of the problem is the need for health insurance in the first place. If the medical care were affordable in the first place it would then be easy to provide for the indigent. As for making vague statements about pro-choice folks, you're probably right. I am only going on what I see from many of my friends and acquaintances who tend to be professed progressives. I think you paint a broad stroke when you suggest that pro-lifers don't want to help the poor. But I guess its how you define help. Government has been turning out awesome kids from its schools lately, huh? That's why they should also monopolize healthcare? Both need to be private enterprises subject to market forces. THat is how costs are controlled.

Ok, the old capital punishment/abortion contradiction. On its face, that's probably the stupidest damn comparison I have ever heard. Babies are innocent victims. Murderers are perpetrators of murder. But I'll be fair. Lets look more. Ends justifying the means. So the ends are, a man can murder no more because he is exterminated. The means are, the same as the crime the man was convicted of. I think means can be justified by things other than the ends. In this case, where murder is the most extreme crime, the most extreme justice is served. I think the murderer himself justifies the means to his end. This does not mean consequence can't occur. Rome turned capital punishment into big money entertainment and sport. That slippery slope. It's scaring to think, that at least in the virtual realm, we have far exceeded their thirst for blood. Will virtual people eventually become real people?

i couldn't tell you--i don't support government oversight of healthcare out of a sense of fairness. i hate people, ask anyone! i just think it'll probably be more cost-effective than what we do now. that said, i think you're guilty of painting pro-choice people with a pretty broad brush, saying they're "all for government probing into any matter they deem as a health issue." that's an incredibly vague, unsupported contention. you should check those out before deciding to believe in them. did you know that "the left" poses an equally perplexing puzzle about pro-lifers? it goes something like this: why do pro-lifers care so much about unborn people, when they're the same people who are philosophically against programs to help poor kids get adequate healthcare, schooling, etc. (as well as being the same people who most vociferously support the death penalty)?

Equal treatment under the law, or equal outcome? Where should social justice begin or end? On the left, there exists this arbitrary idea of fairness that must be enforced by any means. Alinsky's Chicago mob have learned their lesson well. I cannot accept the morality (or absence) of ends justifying means. I don't declare this black and white. I just think the focus should be on the means over the ends. If the ends come as a result of the means, then the means inevitably become a part of the ends. The results are corrupted. If this behavior continues, the corruption becomes cumulative. This is partly the concern of the right to lifers. They see any lessening of the value of life as to be ultimately cumulative. The slippery slope so to speak. The so called, pro choice crowd that decries the government intrusion into their right to dispose of pregnancies, is now all for government probing into any matter they deem as a health issue. Personally, I believe the government has no right to decide (abortion) one way or the other. That would be a state issue. But I cannot logically reconcile, prochoice/pro government healthcare, thinking. Please explain this to me.

I know, or I wouldn't have said it. There was an article in our local paper about some elaborate coops (with designer plans) in town since the city legalized raising chickens within city limits. At that point where we equalize with Cuba, I hope we open trade back up so as to score some decent stogies. ITs not fair that only phat cats like Limbaugh get to smoke the good ones.

already done: http://gawker.com/5217195/survivalist-chicken-coops-sprouting-up-across-america

huh? I thought that ass talking thing was pretty funny. I made my wife read it. You do tend to at least present better arguments, than you did here. Pretty emotional. I'm sure I'm the one who has the most reason to be mad. Change is coming. Soon we will all be raising our own chickens and riding around in community owned mule pulled carts. Hell, did we really need the largest middle class in history? Yep, I must have been wrong. THe rich have been stealing all the money and making the poor people poor.

sam-e is pretty badass stuff. i need to start taking that again.

must be these sam-e pills i'm taking. or maybe elephant just represents the teabaggers in totality to me, so i focused a year's worth of frustration with their bull#@&%! onto him. or maybe i just wanted to get his attention because whenever we have these political back and forths, he doesn't even attempt to answer logical arguments against his various positions.

anyway, sorry, elephant! i will probably continue to refute your insane posts, but i will take a ten-minute break, come back, and remove ad hominen attacks before clicking the post message button.

on a unrelated note: QC man- that's so mind blowingly aggressive that it just floors me. How do you stay out of prison? I'm Sure you save all the good stuff for crazy forums but that's just a pitbull aggressiveness. I think you make some good points but don't really see the need for some of the over the top viciousness. I guess it's probably all in the upbringing, just like real pits. Still: yowsers.

wowsers: so you think that Palin really could win in a pillow fight against anyone else in the GOP? That is a brasen view indeed. In other news: Keith Oberman is still a blowhard, and this thread is starting to get those patronizing tones. Surely the ratings will go up on the redfizz political thinktank hour, or should I say our ? LOOL

I have failed to convince anyone here with the things I suggest. On a google search I just did, I found this which sort of ties my thoughts up better than I have been able.
http://troubledcorinthian.blogspot.com/2010/03/am-i-my-brothers-keeper.html

Being rather apposed to McCain, I watched the democrat debates more than republican. Obama was an anti-war candidate, so I gave him consideration. I observed how he would listen to his opponents and then position himself slight more to the center. I grew suspicious. When he asked if we are our brothers keepers, I recognized the old proverbial question of cain to god. I ask, if the government becomes my keeper, does it become my big brother? That was the point when I stopped considering him. Unfortunately, he is not as politically inept as McCain. What has been accomplished is a massive (big #@&%!ing deal). This has been a push maintained for many years. Obama and his ilk have won. I doubt we can work this out in this thread, only time will be the teacher. As it always has been.

I'm pretty sure the Pinocchio one was pretty literal.

Probably, as far as you can tell.

so i guess i can assume that all of the retarded arguments you've made in this thread are facetious?

Nice try. Of course you can't read between the lines. Do you believe I would realistically support crappy brakes? I would be the unfortunate innocent taken out by the darwinian casualty. Rear-ended. I was trying to make a point in terms you could understand. Evidently, I over-estimated you. I am of course upset over the rear-ending our country is taking. I obviously am preaching nazism, oops, there I go again.

so lemme get this straight, elephant. you want the government to MANDATE how the car companies build cars? oh man, i can imagine what you and the rest of the teabaggers would be saying if congress/obama did that. "HE'S TAKING OVER THE AUTO INDUSTRY! AGH! BARACK HUSSEIN HITLER! OOGA BOOGA! 2nd AMENDMENT!"

seriously, though, you see what you just said? you're complaining about the government setting speed limits on PUBLIC (i.e., govt-built/owned/operated) roads, and instead you'd rather they force car manufacturers to use inferior designs on their brakes. that makes a lot of sense. first of all, it should be painfully obvious that that flies in the face of your purported conservatism. get your story straight.

besides being a hypocritical suggestion coming from you, it's not even politically realistic. in the upside-down retard world you propose, elected officials would issue mandates for things that get people injured and killed (less powerful brakes), not things that save voters' lives (speed limits). yeah, the guys who vote "yay" on that law are likely to be reelected. jesus christ, do you know how democracy works? grow up and join the real world.

you also invoke social darwinism as something we should aspire to. for someone who has worried in this very forum that obama will usher in a period of leftist fascism, you should be aware that social darwinism was one of the major philosophical underpinnings of nazism.

i just have one question. how did you teach your ass to talk?

soon you will learn to love big brother as i have. drink your victory gin comrade! haven't you heard? we have defeated eurasia! or was that eastasia...?

Bratty makes my point well (even through his lightly veiled sarcasm) with the motor vehicle law references. Instead of demanding that people know how to drive before being licensed, instead of people understanding rules of right of way, instead of teaching people how to regulate their speed via the gas pedal instead of constantly tapping their brakes,... they must be protected from themselves. The automobile industry has no stake in preventing crashes. Instead, they design vehicles so that people will live to purchase and crash another vehicle. Anti-lock brakes made it possible for cars to stop faster, thus people are now able to drive closer to the limits of their reaction time. Less people died last year due to improved crash survivability. But were there fewer crashes? I say mandate braking power reductions by 50%. That will take a lot of dumb-asses off the road right away and people might be forced to learn to drive. The more restrictions the government places on people, the more they are dumbed down. Darwinian theory is subverted. While liberty and freedom offer transcendence and growth, tyranny's play to the lowest common denominator hurts everyone. The water meter example is pointless. A water meter is no different than a cash register. I am a capitalist. I need water and I have no objection to paying to have it provided. In fact, water and roads are two good examples of what the government should be doing. Some of my coworkers are doing wellness programs with the health coverage we receive from work. They receive price breaks for making changes in aspects such as their diets, exercise regimes, even down to their driving habits. I refuse to participate as I perceive the information they require to be too intrusive. The other day they were required to go get their fingers pricked for blood tests by our company nurse. When the tests showed elevated cholesterol levels, they were then forced to produce letters from their personal doctors giving them permission to work-out (exercise) and continue in the program. Its coming. Yes, we have been progressiVely (there's that word again) marching down this path since Roosevelt. But this is the big one. Its a fundamental shift of power from the people to a growing unelected invasive bureaucracy. I wish it was just a helmet law. I wish that back in the 60s, some of you people would have been able to look into the future and see what you have presently come to accept. Would you not have been astounded? Incredulity indeed. Down with the establishment!

it reminds me of the 70s scifi fare for the near future, or yes, the borg or limborg if you will and all that brave new world, logans run type stuff, gattica kinda frightening that we could all be wearing jumpsuits and running palm scans, or being harvested at our expiration point, yeah viva Amercans

i can honestly say i know how you feel. i felt that way after they enacted helmet laws. and seat belt laws. and 55 MPH max speeds. we recently got water meters installed in our neighborhood. seems like unacceptable government intrusion when it first happens. i understand the incredulity.

Our founders held the principles of liberty and freedom and devised a constitution they hoped would ensure those principles.

Our goVernment has justed voted itself the power to control every aspect of our lives.

And you wonder at the anger and vitriol coming from the 62%? Our goVernment, our society, has been surrendered to the forces of tyranny and those who wish to share in that power.

Our goVernment has the responsibility to encourage competition among those market forces which have put health care beyond the reach of many, which it has failed to do. Instead, they aim to squash the competition and control the market as they have other markets. Only, this market involves your bodily fluids, pumping heart, breathing lungs, and reasoning mind. Treason.

The progressiVe mind envisions a world and society of unified mind. People all onboard, holding hands, for the whole of society. (anyone remember the borg?) The problem is (the reality) populations are hard to unify without being enslaved. Get real.

The conservatiVe envisions society where a man can be his own man. In this manner the ultimate goal of human civility is attained by uplifting man, and not enslavement as the progressiVes (statists; yes, I will repeat that word) believe.

Regardless, unless power is shifted back to the people, this is now the progressiVes world. Since I don't have any choice in the matter, I will just have to sit and watch this play out. I find it amazing how societies must be forced (painfully) to relearn the same historical lessons.

The capital V is an arrow pointing the direction down.

Jeez he's really after you unk.

Awe! Thanks. I think.

well i will say this: of all the people i have met on the internet, you are the internettest.

HA! I think you like it as much as my reviews here.

yeah, i was complaining more about the disjointed/contradictory/#@&%!headed thought processes more than any grammatical issues.

ha!

There are no rules, only guidelines, guidelines are for skipping over (gaily or not is optional)

wait: bamacare will fix that too

i'm sending you my dental bills

you know my grammar, my thought structure and my language skills in general are horrible but I honestly had no idea that my pure existence or comical rudimentary understanding of politics actually caused others any pain

it's a triumph in my book

That's like a gold star or a happy face on your report card Unk!!

I feel very proud of myself right now. I should probably feel sad but I really don't care. I don't think I've ever been publicly admonished for my writing skills but I thank you for that QC. You bastard.

i want you to send a personal note of apology to any teacher who ever had the misfortune of having to correct your writing. jesus #@&%!ing christ. your sentences make me grind my teeth.

I hear ya Jams. I think that Maher is a good instigator and a pot stirrer but I still see the feller as a armchair quarterback and a good critic of the system. I'm not convinced he could do anything effective in politics. In the same manner I see Franken as a bit of a joke. That said I didn't trust a very progressive slick Willy Clinton although I think he was a untrustworthy very badass accomplished dude who got a lot done. I think he damaged the party and a lot of ties.

I'm really scared of most progressives although I see that they are needed for some of the changes. Can you imagine what Maher would do in office? No worse than Jesse Ventura I guess. Personally I am glad that we "don't get all the government we pay for" most of the time and I think that a lot of the bickering is better than soaps or reality shows but it does get old.

One thing that does bug me, (maybe I'm getting cranky) are the hotbuttons. We spend half the time on the abortion, marijuana, etc. It keeps us distracted from a lot of the fiscal issues and all this war stuff. That said: I'm just a spectator. I definitely don't have the same edumacation that you guys suffer from

In todays parlance a progressive is a very different type. The modern progressive still believes in liberal ideas and a major role for government. However, a progressive generally believes that programs should be effecient and effective. They can also recognize the role of private sector and markets to achieve the goals. Bill Mahar is definitely a progressive, but if you want to see a true progressive in action, read Thomas Friedman.

Interestingly enough, old school moderate Republicans like Eisenhower exibited progressive thinking. I certainly believe Franklin and Hamilton would be seen as progressives.

You Lie!
Baby Killer!
Armageddon!

IE: Actually, I can be a little persnickety to say the least, but honestly I am always skeptical about the government in general but have a liberal slant to say the least. I grew up in a liberal liberal place where there were some real eye turners - be it free school supplies, wellfare and a lot of programs that weren't really helping the greater good and basically have helped bankrupt the Cali system.

Really, I am definitely not a polysci person - obviously but I hope that the floodwaters down overfill the gates. I also hlpe to get some healthcare.

maybe now some friends of mine who have not been able to get health coverage because of pre-existing conditions will now be able to have coverage.

Otis was a glue dipper at the local furniture factory

i think it's kind of exciting. shake things up a bit, create some energy. keeps things interesting. and these are some interesting times we are living in, are they not?

regulate my hotdog, IRS whores

sorry spaz, I think you are an upstanding and compassionate person, but this is the beginning of the great bummer. otis didn't have a day job. he was under the care of his brothers keeper. remember cain? good one that turned out. the bleeding hearts keep huffing the wacky crap. life devoid of reality. the constituents have been betrayed. smoke up folks. its your crappy life.

it passed

The Queen and I wish we could have attended. So what was Otis' day job anyway?

I took quite a trip to the bean and barrel in chapel hill, the other night. Jeni and I were treated to the stylistic entertainment of WillB and the Sticky Wickets. Will rocked the house and the wickets were sticky. Turns out the pimento and cheese is the sandwich to get. They had foothills, peoples porter on tap, you know I had one of those. Best brewery in the world. And there was mayberry trivia. Turns out both tommy chong and the mayor of mayberry were stoners. You would never guess what the door prize was. All in all, it was a fun night.

Like I said....a very well informed bunch.

Good find Spaz

...oh for #@&%!s sake they're just fighting/protesting/whatever because the other side are traditional enemies! What a bloody mess, I hope you guys get your #@&%! sorted over there

Wow...what a well informed bunch.

http://pubrecord.org/multimedia/7239/final-health-protest-partiers-admit/

ok ok, sounds good, but how do you feel about the tiger woods scandal and wolf blitzer? Is green technology the next enron? What's up with dick cheney anyway? I kid I kid...

Oh, I did mention the conservatives are right. And I meant that. Problem is most rednecks are too stupid to understand what that term means. And those that do who are in the GOP only use it garner votes. They have no desire to limit a damn thing except for access to government by The People.

No Eisenhower - that was a great moderate Repubican. No talks about Ike. You know, won WWII, presided over the greatest expanse of the American Middle Class and the greatest peacetime economic growth. Plus built the interstate system so we can drive 90 MPH.

Oh, wait, he had no scandals and he got things done. That is why we don't talk about him.

What I find very unsettlling is for the most part, the conservatives - or a least the moderates - are largely correct. For one, we do not need to spend another trillion dollars. The money for public health care already exists and is spent in the most costly medical facility you can go to. I am talking about indigent care funds that pay off Emergency Room visits. That an real market reforms for the insurance industry, plus real form of the medical care establishment, public health can exists. A basic policy for everyone, Caddilac policies for those who can affiord them.

The bill in Congress, in all its potential final forms at this point is crap that will make insurance companies even richer and millions will still have no care. Except that expensive ER care when the illness has escalated - paid for by local tax revenues.

If you are on the left or the right on this issue, you are either grossly misinformed or a complete moron.

dudes

That is the greatest thing I have ever seen ever in the history of ever, it's like getting fugdrucked by a video.
Mint as, bro.

http://trololololololololololo.com/ better than salvia.

I appreciate qc calling tea partiers by their name. I certain modicum of respect? I could tell you about the flat earth state of certain scientific diciplines, i.e. astrophysicists, geologists, climatologists (boy, are they going to be embarrassed in a few years) If all we had to fear was man-bear-pig, aw, never mind. I agree with the bratty dude. MY favorite state of mind is when I am productive and creative. Those salvia dudes never get past the second coconut, let alone drive a car. Hey baby, huff this.

well as a great friend told me, the herbs or allies just help you realize you're tripping. Then you can tap into the source at will

YAY- I totally relate to that comment. Just bein a kid, tryin to have fun. I never tried Pam but liquid paper and butane. A acquaintance died using scotch guard... (duh) I remember the voice changes... maybe that's why I like mixing and weird noises so much.

this is a great thread. the salvia vids are a little frightening. i seriously doubt i'll ever try that. their reactions remind me of when i was younger and we would huff PAM to get high. or freon. freon was funny because while you were in your weird alternate state, your voice would be about 4 octaves lower than normal. like the opposite of inhaling helium. either way, there's no way that isn't doing something really bad to your brain. and if not your physical brain, then your subsequent perception of real time events. like, after it wears off. i've finally come to peace with my world as it is, i'm just going to dig it like that until i am forced to make a change, real or perceived.

HA! I guess both groups are stating that we're about to fall of a cliff. That's where I was going with the analogy but I had a feeling I'd get flack for that one.

al gore: representing claims of the overwhelming majority of climate scientists.

tea partiers: representing claims of people who basically don't know what the #@&%! they're talking about.

the resemblance is uncanny.

Hey, I did a little reading on the tea party and I must say it reminds me of Al Gore's campaign to save the earth, except in this case it looks like a campaign to save the economy, followed by some firm stances about how-to do it... I find it interesting but I'm a little concerned about the corrective actions that they plan to take in regards to fixing the issues, and I'm a little concerned about the fear and the drama that are associated with this cause. It seems a little overexaggeraged to me. I'm sure I"m being vague and a little ignorant but it seems like there are some false alarms or false pretenses for some of this call to action, or in short, too sharp of a course correction for something that maybe a sign of the times, or previous issues that can't be fixed with: well let's face it - more Republican shenanigans...call me distrustful of the W years - good grief

Like I said its just hypothetical. I personally hope that it goes through but not for noble reasons. If it does I won't have to be a dependent of my parents anymore. Right now I get no financial aid for school becuase I'm on my parents health insurance, but don't qualify for unemployment because i'm a student. I pay all my own bills and I'm running out of money, though it affords me a nice amount of time to play music and troll redfizz. haha. Truthfully I'm pretty tired of rice and beans.

Someone mentioned a fizzfest. I'm in the midst of planning a nationwide journey hitting wonderful cities such as tulsa, colorado, portland, seatle and san diego. I would love to make the first stop be a fizzfest on the circumstance that it goes down in early july.

i've heard that argument made, not sure by whom. it's definitely not the main republican talking point against universal care. i'm not sure what effect government coverage would have on actual health workers like doctors and nurses. if anything, i think the demand for those professions might increase as millions more people have access to healthcare. the one industry i can see getting hurt by a public option is health insurance--they would have to compete against government insurance, which can theoretically run at a loss indefinitely. but as of now, there probably won't be a public option anyway. the senate bill in its most recent form was criticized as being a gift to the health insurance companies, since it required everyone to get coverage, sort of like auto insurance. but i think even before the public option got negotiated out, there were some safeguards in place that would supposedly have made sure the government insurance would be priced at market values state by state, so as not to decimate the insurance industry. i can't imagine chris dodd, representing the insurance company homeland of connecticut, would support a measure that would have hurt the industry too much.

Ok, fair enough. Just devils advocate here, like I said I officially have no opinion on this but I am now interested. There are just a lot of scenarios in my mind where I see a possibility that these politicians are playing a game where its kindof like 'the ends justify the means' so their talking parts are marketed to people who won't think about it. I have a hard time believing (becuase I don't want to) that the republicans who must not be that dumb, just want to dig their heels in for no reason except that its what they are supposed to do. I really hope that there is some reason that is somewhat 'ugly truth' that just wouldnt fly as marketing to americans but never the less is a legitimate concern for the best interest of america in their opinion. This is hypothetical but what if it was simply that so many american industries are #@&%!ed right now that americas economy is severly hurt. They feel that if you pull the leg out from the healthcare industry now and overhaul it it will make the country even less stable, more debt to china etc etc etc. Now they can't talk about wanting to save a corporation, the 'real americans' they market to for votes hate the idea of corporate bailouts. Now this was hypothetical obviously but I see a distinct possibility for a strategic use for talking points in order to sell a valuable idea where the truth wouldn't sell itself. Its kindof shady, but I know it happens really often. That why I just don't know. I sincerely hope that all the people are trying to do what they think is right.

moschetti, i am not totally sure about socialized healthcare. as you said, it's way too complicated an issue for a layman to have any serious opinion on. however, two pieces of evidence give me a reasonable amount of confidence in it.

1) the biggest scumbags in politics--sarah palin, other right wing republicans, and the tea partiers--are against it. (yeah, ron paul is too, but he's against pretty much all government spending, and i think even he would admit that we could afford healthcare if we dissolved even half of our trillion dollar a year overseas empire.) there was an email going around last year that contained a list of conservative talking points against the house bill. basically every point you heard a politician or tea bagger make against that bill was in this email. i took a random sampling of three or four points from that email, and checked the wording of the bill against these claims. in every case, the claims were based on misunderstanding/deliberate misreading of the bill. scumbags, i tell you.

2) pretty much every industrialized country has some form of socialized universal healthcare. they're not perfect, but one fact ties them together: they all cost less as a percentage of gdp than we americans currently pay for our healthcare. and by pretty much any measure, we also rank near the bottom of industrialized nations in terms of quality of care.

finally, let me reiterate: sarah palin, thoroughly corrupt retard, vehemently opposes any kind of socialized healthcare.

But upon further consideration, I'm not sure that having no illusions syncs up with the idea that my surroundings are all illusions.... I'm glad that there are people who firmly believe that they have some ground on which they can make a foundation for logical structure which they can exist in.

I've deffered my opinions on the matters of politics. I don't know the truth, the numbers, the research or the situation. A person who is making decisions on these healthcare issues would be doing this as something of a full time job, reading and analyzing information to suit thier case. But then the truth of that information doesn't matter, they are pandering to %50 of the country in order to get votes. Only in times of extreme desperation does anything useful or truthfull come to pass. I don't know if socialized health care will bankrupt the country and I don't know if I believe that it will help. Who the hell am I to have opinions on this kind of #@&%!? I'm glad you guys feel so confident. I hope its different than when I used to read a lot about this type of stuff and feel confident because I realized I was just completely foolish. Now I stick to trying to figure out the one thing I am involved with. The truth is inherent to it simply existing. Music is good for my brain too!

I can agree with IE on his last statement about not wanting to pay insurance companiesl. That is what I kept hollering at my Senators and Congressman about since the beginning. Reform healthcare so we can all afford it. Insurance only for catastrophic care.

But I am 100% for a public option. Only mine does not cost any additional money. It just takes the money that governments pay hospitals to cover the indigent care, along with money being totally wasted in administration costs and funnels that away from expensive late-stage illness that costs a fortune in the Emergency Room shift it to preventative and early-stage treatment handled in low-cost clinics.

I think in some areas, it may even cost the community less for indigent care than we are paying now. But then again, that is another of those totally stupid conservative positions that they don't want to pay for a public option when they already doing so at as much as 5 times what is should cost!

When I was first involved with politics, you argued leaders, positions, etc. Somewhere someone - yes, we can be sure it was a "conservative" - started interjecting media personalities into the mix. And it is self-evident. Conservatives are the first to point how much more succesful conservative radio is than liberal radio (as in the massive failure of Air America). Hmm. Perhaps liberals and moderate just waste their time rummaging around the AM dial in search of someone to validate there own paranoia.

What seems to get lost, however, is that what conservatism really is - like what you use to hear level-headed, well researched broadcasters like Paul Harvey used to champion - just does not line up to what Rush and Fox News has turned it into. Lets put it this way. Colbert could not have done his schtik when Reagan was in office as intellectuals like Bill Buckley and even convervatives with progressive ideas like Jack Kemp still led the discussion.

well acc'd to this study we're an intelligent bunch :) http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/26/liberals.atheists.sex.intelligence/index.html?hpt=C2

I love to debate as long as everyone gets a say. I get a little heated up. Not everyone can do this without taking things personal. I have some friends where we have learned not to have political conversation at all.

I like the idea of limiting insurance to catastrophic. If you do regular medical checks to prevent damage from puking, or you just choose to puke, requiring medical attention, you pay out of pocket. We need to reduce the insurance Dr.s must pay and promote efficiency and affordability by encouraging and reducing the impediments to market competition. The key is making routine care affordable. I don't want to pay insurance companies to pay my bills. We puke, therefore we are.

I know, but never apologise for how you feel about something, and the way they stick to their guns is admirable.
Me? I wouldn't trust any political party as far as I could kick em, even WITH Steve Austin's tricky legs, I respect what they believe in, just I myself don't trust one single politician, I don't believe for one second ANY political party has the people's best interests at heart. History is written by the winners, not the truth tellers.
I hope things go well for ALL of you in your country, that the corporations behind everything stop pulling ALL the strings and that healthcare is available to all, rich, middle class and poor, i hope no more bunnies die in tragic warren fires and I hope ET got home safe and sound.
May your kegs never run dry, may your bud always be sticky and may your trips be safe.

Eh, well I shouldn't discredit IE QC or Jams. It's really like 2 threads in one...
Personally: I think it would be fun to try salvia before I decide whether I'll stick to beer, etc.

As far as politics: these guys are describing it the same way my fellow workers talk about football. I'm sure these gents are refined enough to wade through all this but I'm just not there yet. I reckon that Jams and IE are long time engineers and longtime poly buffs. I'm sure they have a lot of expertise and there seems to be a healthy respect here, I think

I'm with you, arguing about politics is like arguing about which leash suits you better.
A classic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFBC5aa1wFw

pretty good http://www.nearlygood.com/video/drivingonsalvia.html

eh, I say we just get back to the puking analogies and more funny salvia videos. I have seen a lot of dumb ones but can't seem to find too many hilarious posts out there. I keep hearing about a famous race car vid (hallucination) where a dudes driving an imaginary car... any ideas?

I actually met Lynrd. He's the real deal. I met him after a show, real down to earth, had a boat load of coke and a herd of groupies. Not afraid to share anything either. Thing is: he did not boast or brag but actually just played the best he could. I got to sit in and jam, not that I'm up to his caliber, but just sayin he's a real good guy. I think you can generalize tonight.

Make a case. Present an argument. Make the other guy look up his #@&%!. Stating stupid #@&%! as fact without any support, screw that #@&%!. Check me if I'm wrong, aren't all news outlets owned by entertainment conglomerates? SUNUNU? Thank you. I am even more deaf now. Maybe he changed his name to McCain and lost an election to Obama? Bill maher has killed me dead. What an intellectually brain dead ****. Jesus #@&%!ing Christ is not right at all. His middle initial is H. He wasn't a communist. He was a carpenter. I'd be glad to debate that point, but may require a new Jesus thread.

Vacancy of the vacancies? Jane, you ignorant slut.

I don't know about nihilism but I hear people (myself included) discussing really important ideals to strive for but defending ourselves like we actually know what our broad opinions on how the world should work would actually effect the world. It's as annoying as talking about music with people that have different values but nothing interesting to say aobut what they are listening to. "Yo I like Lynrd Skynyrd their guitarists is sick' 'what do you like about him' ' Yknow it like southern rock and it just rocks' 'oh uhhh cool'.... as compared to 'yo i like lynrd skynyrd their guitarist is sick' 'dude that guy sucks have you ever heard of django reinhardt' 'i dunno its just kind of fruity, he's really good but lynrd skyrnd rocks' 'dude what are you talking about etc.etc.etc.etc.

some truly boring #@&%!

sheeit

really? I still see it as a significant factor

I've seen some interesting suppositories in this thread as well

i'm thinking about becoming a nihilist but i'm pretty sure it won't matter.

I imagine he means both. Funny smelling meat is funny. Nothing funny about that.

funny like a joke or funny like, "this meat smells funny"?

Politics, science, religion, and math are all suppositions that are useful for getting an illusion of security comfort and control none of which have anything to do with the truth. Regarding something you are basing on idealogy as truth is a funny idea.

Jane,... you ignorant slut.

I like Jon Stewart and Colbert and that fella with the Scottish accent.
I like cake better.

You say you cannot stomach Jon Stewart. As I cannot stomach Rush Limbaugh. But then again, you will never seem me using Stewart to back my positions, I just used him for illustration. I am afraid to say I could have little respect for anyone who parades anything said by either of them to bolster a political point. And that it the problem with the right wing these days. They are so intellectually bankrupt that they have to place a fat loudmouth radio jock as their prime thinker. (Not to mention that fluff politician Sarah Palin as de facto leader). Where is John E Sununu!?!?

Pat Buchanan is for the most part a right-wing ideologue, but at least he is bonefied and intellgent. I can debate him, but I can't discount him. But Rush Limbaugh has never proven anything, Proof requires a postulate or a theorum and well researched data to supporrt it. Howard Stern has a larger research team than Rush Limbaugh. Jesus-#@&%!ing-Christ! HE IS A RADIO ENTERTAINER! HE IS A RADIO ENTERTAINER! HE IS A RADIO ENTERTAINER! HE IS A RADIO ENTERTAINER! HE IS A RADIO ENTERTAINER!

And you know what the GOP Chairman said? HE IS A RADIO ENTERTAINER!

(Where is John E Sununu?!?!!?)

By the way, most right wing leaders have appeared on Stewart show and have been greeting respectfully, listened to, and honestly debated. What can you say about Rush? Rush claims media bias? Can you possiblly statistically demonstrate

If you love Rush and like Colbert, you must be bi-polar or something. Colbert's whole shtick is about how ridiculous Fox News-type political celebrites are.

Now I can understand the confusion of the right-wing. Most vocal critics of the right who do get media exposure - especially by right-wing media - are themselves wing-nuts from the left wing. So when intelligent, engaged, and independent voices like myself are critical of them (not hard to do) their only response is we must by socialist lefty Obama-ites. I know, I get it everyday. If I could magically give the right-wing a brain for a day, I would illustrate to them that on paper, we (the independents) have FAR more in common with them than the left. I would then show them that Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, and the Fox News crew just lack the authority, experience, and intelligent to properly articulate a platform palitable to the majority. How in the hell does the right think we will go along with a group that believe the President of the United States is foreign born, that the Income is not Constitutional, that Sarah Palin is qualified for anything, that those concerned about budgets and deficits give a damn to hear about abortion and gay marriage, etc, etc, etc.

WHERE THE HELL IS JOHN E. SUNUNU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think I may have posted it, but I like to repeat it as much a possible: Imagine going to a group concerned about the future of space flight. But when you get there, instead of astrophysicists and rocket scientists, the room is full of people who think that aliens vist us every day and you need to do is hitch a ride with them. That is what it is like to meet Tea Partiers. They want the same things we do, they are just clueless about the realities that surround the issues. We can thank - in order - Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and Sarah Palin for completely destroying the Conservative Revolution of Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich.

WHERE THE HELL IS JOHN E. SUNUNU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And cannot stomach John Stewart, then Bill Mahar would likely kill you dead on the spot. I don't care if someone does not like his conclusions, Mahar is more honest, informed and techncally correct than all of Comedy Central and Fox News combined.

Now isn't that funny. The right wing has been reduced to comparisons of a comedy network. And you still wonder why I want to know what happened to John E. Sununu!

I'd watch that.

you guys need a video show where you were pirate hats and shout this stuff at the top of your lungs ....it would be far more entertaining than the fodder on most networks. BRAVO

Well, Buchanan points out the fact that even though his (Paul) winning of the CPAC straw poll drew boos from the 70 odd percent who didn't vote for him, he still won, and maybe this is a shift in attitudes. We can only hope. And yes, if Paul were able to (and he admits the difficulty/impossibility) reduce government and bring the boys home (and girls; don't want a common expression to make me look sexist), it would be economically devastating. Suddenly, we would have hundreds of thousands of additional unemployed. Cutting off a limb is painful and devastating, but often what is required to save the patient. Same thing Obama is going through with exactly the opposite agenda. I do believe in American exceptionalism. And I attribute it to the moral founding as others do. While there have been moments less than exceptional in our history, its a testament that even at great cost (ie. civil war) we overcome and transcend. I've been having a great time with this thread. qc is a worthy debater and I have learned a lot researching in the process. I don't think anybody else who has posted here has failed to contribute in a worthwhile manner. I might be through for a while. I probably should listen to some of the new music on this site. Its hard for me to go back stage because I want to vote everyone (or lots) for feature. Some people prefer amateur or independent film over the big studios. I am not a film buff, but the point is the same. Its like going to the fair. My favorite part is going to the art building. And I most want to see the art from grades K through sixth. Their lack of preconception of art leads to an accidental creativity that cannot be compared with the art from more experienced students. I think its the same thing here. And since I am concerned that the sun might not come up tomorrow, I am off to take some LSG. And thus, I leave this thread back where I first found it.

by the way, elephant, i sent that exact ron paul clip to a lot of people back in 2008. you did notice of course that the crowd went WILD when giuliani made his idiotic, self-righteous rebuttal, right? and who were the people in that audience? mainstream republicans. fox news viewers. rush limbaugh dittoheads. they haven't simply disappeared since then; they still believe in american exceptionalism, social conservatism, and empire-building, and they're hiding among the tea-partiers and town hall disrupters.

by dispassionate, i meant not inflamed by moral posturing, that's all. and yes, i don't agree with paul on everything--abortion and certain states' rights issues he is suspiciously silent on, to name but two. but i do think of all the candidates i have seen, he's the only one with an intellectually consistent political philosophy, and more important, he seems to be a man of his word. so even if i don't agree with him on some things i consider pretty important, at least i'd know what i was getting if he were elected. on the other hand, i'm not sure i could bring myself to pull the lever for him in a general election, mainly because a #@&%! ton of very respected and brilliant economic thinkers say he's all wet. now his economic ideas make sense to me, but i accept the possibility that something that seems sensible to a layman--especially in a discipline as complex as economics--may still be complete horse#@&%!. i donated money to paul's primary campaign because i thought he represented the best hope for the republican party to halt its death-spin towards some kind of weird theocratic fascism. i aint no republican, but anyone can see that that wouldn't be good for the country.

anyway, as to your estimation of the true thoughts and motives of republican party bigwigs and rush limbaugh, i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. i happen to think both are bad faith players, akin to johnny iselin from the manchurian candidate.

Pat nails it again.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=35746

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQrwKr_b4Lg

I should have placed this with my comment on it. Rock on.

Whew! This could become a full-time job. Seems I should be entitled to benefits and pension, no? What? Union dues?

First, I have never argued for guv sponsorship of christianity or religion (the word that keeps popping up). Separation of state and religion was a good idea. The founders recognized that fighting between factions was the worst thing and dominance by one faction would limit the freedom of the others. But the fact is the founders and other great thinkers of the day, be they deist, presbyterian, episcopalian or other, ascribed to the fact that our rights as men are endowed by a creator. And I repeat the often used distinction of freedom of religion and not freedom from religion. It is true that much of the references to God have crept in over time and at later dates than the founding. And I will leave the nit-picking debates over such things as the ten commandments being displayed in court houses to other people. All I am saying is that I think that it is important for our government to recognize a higher power other than itself. Civilization requires some recognition of morality, however you choose to define that.

I was pleased when qc acknowledged "and once a power is grabbed by a government entity, it tends to stay grabbed. that's just the nature of ways things work." Because, though I might be wrong, I believe the tea party was a response to what they deemed a government power grab (and the taxes and bureaucracy that will follow). I am a personal witness to the concept of bureaucratic enslavement. I need my job so I will not go into certain detail. Firstly though, the company I work for goes to infuriatingly great lengths to be honestly compliant with federal authorities. One of those is the FDA. I have personal opinions that agree with this; http://www.fdareview.org/index.shtml Read this. Learn it. Print out the 80 or so pages and carry it in your pocket. The suggested reining in of many federal agencies such as the FDA is what first attracted me to Ron Paul. I was later swayed by his arguments on foreign policy. (I loved watching the foaming spittle spraying flustering of Rudi screaming, "you take that back". ) But back to my personal experience. I have observed that when a company goes into a validation process that must be approved by regulators, the procedures are written with an attempt to go over and beyond every single thing that can be thought might need to be included. (sound like a proposed health legislation you have heard of lately?) And of course the regulators come back and say fine, but you need to change this and this. And as the process is run (after validation) improvements to the process are discovered (or knew about) that might encompass, speed and reliability to safety and efficacy. The problem is that these changes need to go through change control and validation procedures to prove they aren't destructive. And that takes time and money and people and paper. But adding to the procedure is easy. So if the FDA is going to require changes during the validation process anyway, why not start with a more stream lined procedure and build up? And the paperwork and people who push that paper and create the problems that serve to justify their jobs of fixing them, to me, model guv bureaucracies.

So it turns out that we all have a favoring towards Ron Paul even though we met here coming from different places. qc, I admit to being surprised when you stated as to being a fan, to the point of donating, of Ron Paul. Some of your ideas don't seem to match some of his. Why does debate have to be dispassionate? Is Dr. Paul Dispassionate? Is anyone? Jam, you are not acknowledging the ubiquitous bias in the media. Rush proves it over and over. He does his media tweaks. He announces in advance and then makes controversial remarks purposely set and publicly stated in a certain context. The next day he will play montages of all the media replaying his words without the context. They fall for it every time. And as for the entertainer comment, of course I have heard that many times. I think that the point of that is that he is not writing news but rather commenting on it. Why he uses what seems to be a cya ploy is beyond me. I guess I'll have to ask him. I admit that no news is without bias. I quite watching Fox news a long time ago. I got tired of the 24 hours of celebrity scandal thats Fox uses to boost ratings. I realize that Drudge posts stories with titles that lean to a view. I don't know who Glenn Beck is. What little I have heard sounds like he leans libertarian. He definitely over-emotes. Hannity always sounds like he's reading lists of talking points in debating. When he gets tired, he repeatedly demands a yes or no answer to the one damning question that's answer requires explanation and context. Levin is a douche-bag. He is a smart guy, but he will not debate because he lacks the patience. Instead he satisfies conservative stereotypes of being a bully. Limbaugh excuses Levin's vulgarity by calling him passionate. I wish he could use his knowledge to spread his views of limited government. Instead, he's preaching to the choir. John Stewart makes me sick at my stomach. I have tried watching and I just can't. At least even though I often disagree with Colbert I don't get sick. His parody of conservatism is funny.

I am less upset with the political bickering than most of you seem to be. The best governance we get anymore is on snow days when the government shuts down. I don't want them getting things done if getting things done is worse than doing nothing. Politicians should be restricted to governing only three months a year excepting emergency session. Let the pompous #@&%!s go home and work for a living like the rest of us. Political perspectives would surely change then. It appears I am being interpreted as being a republican. I realize that might be easy to do since I am a registered republican and have always been, even though my views are more in line with constitutionalists or libertarians. Whether they walk the walk that they talk is irrelevant. Bull#@&%!ters regardless of political affiliation need to go. I just lean in from this direction.

The point of whether or not Lincoln was or was not, or was and acted as, or whoever, is irrelevant. Parties do flip flop. Those 60s folks that were promoting, if it feels good, or down with the establishment, are now the nannie-stators that want to regulate everything. I hear they are trying to give hotdogs the big tobacco treatment now. I predict we will soon hear the phrase, "Big Hotdog." You heard it from me first. They have already #@&%!ed up my french fries. The point that is relevant is, that lincoln loved the declaration of independence and was a huge factor in bringing its prominence to the fore of founding documents. He was a believer in that events were being controlled by a supreme being and that the declaration was a moral document. And you should realize that his ideas of guv expansion, in those days, equated to building roads and railroads to facilitate trade. Though he instituted the income tax, he was a flat tax guy. As for favoring paper money over gold, you have to realize that the civil war was a war of economics as much as anything. Gold had value to all and thus was uncontrollable. He might have thought differently were the situation different. The same with states rights. Slavery was a moral abomination so great as to supersede states rights. Lincoln sounds like the embodiment of the views of current day republicans regardless of the way republicans actually govern.

I gathered that we were getting a glimpse of common ground. I was starting to feel the love. Hence, another huge diatribe. For those growing weary, at least I am going back to work tomorrow.

Thanks for the message. Jams you reign surpreme whether you are right or not. Good stuff man, good stuff. Irrefutable and quite lively Jams

Holy #@&%!! Combine, I wrote and article for the New York Times here!

No, I wll not apologize!

" teabaggers make their mouths form some of those same arguments without actually understanding the whys and wherefores" Exactly! If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would belive that the GOP encourages these people to make the rest of us who believe in the core principals look like a fool

Here is my absoolute proof the GOP does believe these things. If the GOP stood for lower taxes, limited government. libertarian freedom, etc, etc, etc, they would have nominated the only candidate who vote that way 100% of the time - Ron Paul. Here is the irony against the conventional wisdom. In Atlanta, the Ron Paul rallies happened not is GOP strongholds like Roswell and East Cobb by the Young Republicans; they were held in Little Five Point by hippies in Patriot hats!

We are very fortunate here in Atlanta in the former GOP arch-conservative Bob Barr now writes for the Atlanta Journal Constitution and has exposed much of the bull#@&%! in both parties. And that is where I give the Tea crowd a modicum of respect. Many are independents who have no love of the GOP either.

Lincon was a Republican! That is hilarious. Jesus was a Jew. So what? The Republican Party of today bears little or no resemblence to then. I bears no resemblence to 40 years ago. You do realize that most of the Southern GOP in the last sixties and seventies were all previsously Democrats!

Dude, if you have to defend the GOP by bringing up Lincoln, isn't it time to quit? Let me give you a hint. What you THINK the GOP stands for? There is party that actually does believe that stuff - plus thinks you should be able to smoke weed as part of the "freedom" conservatives love pretend they support. We are called the Libertarian Party.

One last thing. Seriously. If you really want to be a conservative. Turn of FOX and Rush Limbaugh. Get a copy of the Federalist Papers. Read and Understand. You will find that right-wing does NOT love the US Constitution. All of their arguments about taxes, guns, etc, are CLEARLY refuted by Hamilton, Jay, and Madison. The tea partiers yelling "I want my country back -without knowing it - are calling to abolish the Constitution and return us to the Article of Conferation. They are Brutus, not Publius and they lost those arguments. Here is how you could blow the mind of a teapartier - if they could comprehend it. Read them the 30th Federalist were Hamilton explains the power of taxations is necessary for governments "liberal and enlarged plans" LIBERAL AND ENLARGED PLANS!?!?!?!? OH MY GOD! THE FOUNDING FATHER WERE #@&%!ING SOCIALISTS!

(Then carry the book to over the NRA people and read them Hamiltons 29th Federalist where he speak of the State Militia - and NEVER ONCE mentions the individual right to own a gun. Why? Because for the information of the retards in this nation, in 1789, gun ownship was no more in debate than socialism. Guns were the least effective weapon we had. You killed way more in battle with cannons and bayonetts. At a distance man with a gun was no match for a man with a bow. There was no concept of gun laws. In the term "bear arms" did NOT mean hold a gun, it meant literally "go to war". My favorite quote is "One does not bear arms against a rabbit.

So much for US History 101

hey, i just clicked on this thread because i saw it was about my favorite new scary drug. when i saw IE spewing tea party vomit, i just couldn't cede the public space to that misguided nonsense.

didn't mean to equate teabaggers with libertarians, jamsmith. i know there's a big difference. i was just taking a lazy shortcut in that sentence there; the libertarians articulate their differences with lincoln, and the teabaggers make their mouths form some of those same arguments without actually understanding the whys and wherefores.

IE. Please seriously, those "talking points" do not really wash with intelligent and informed people. I am talking about Limbaugh. Here is the fantasy. Rush has 20 million followers. The reallity he has 20 million listeners. I know lot of liberals who tune in to either shout him down (as if he could hear them!) or to just laugh. Let me clue in on a reality via the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters). Rush Limbaugh speaking the to group told them he was no more than a radio entertainer and that if right-wing talk audience went away, he would be happy spinning records. He is Howard Stern. He is Don Imus. He is not a political scientist, he has no research team. He makes up quite a lot of what he says. It makes him very wealthy. I implore you to understand that so you do not look foolish in front of people who know better.

I spent 5 years riding around in truck all day long listening the Chuck Harder "For the People" and Rush Limbaugh. 5 years, 5 days a week, 52 week a year. I am not ignorant. I am likely in the top 2% of informed citizens in the nation. I actually talk to aides of Senators and Congressmen on a regular basis. I am on left or right idealogue. I also watch the evening news - the so-called media that "twists" LImbaugh. I have seen no more than actual clips of his show. If you are talking about talking-head shows on CNN or CNBC, those people are only half better than Rush. They are often legit journalists, but they are also paid to entertain. That ugly blur that is Infotainment.

Lets put it this way. Both Rush and John Stewart use news and prevailing opinions to entertain us. Satire. A proud tradition in America. Here is the sad difference between the left and the right. The left can listen to Steward and tell when he is reporting facts and when hes goofing on us. The right does not seem to have this ability. An even though is a known comedic performer - who writes very funny books - Fox News watchers take him seriously!

IE, I will not defend Obama. I think he may be in the running against Carter for least effective liberal president. However, the vast amount of "Obama" spending is directly related to the problems we are suffering after 8 year of Bush/Cheney. The right wing's arguments are like yelling at the fireman for wasting water putting out the fire they themselves caused.

QC. Please to not call teabaggers libertarians. Those of us who are are offended. However, the "tea party movement", while some factions are genuine and derive from Libertarian and Reform movements, most are people goaded by Glenn Beck to join something they really do not understand. Sure a lot of black hating people find it convenient to join, the real issue is that the GOP has NEVER truly subscribed to Goldwater/Reagan/Buckley conservatism. They opposed that until they found out via Reagan it is a wonderful populus too. Republicans love big government as a wing of big business. They only oppose it when Democrats are in power. And then they get the mindless mobs out.

Truth is, I would gladly join the movement if they actually knew what they were talking about. Its like showing up for a group promoting space travel only to find out the people are ignorant of science and intend to hitch a ride on a UFO that travels faster than light!

Unk. The difference between DEA rumors and conspiracy theories is the that former are almost always true. Most of what I have heard came 2nd hand, not via the rumor mill. For instance, the DEA boarding boats flagged with another country (like Liberia) in international waters I heard from the wife of a merchant mariine (Scandinavia registered ship in the South China sea. Sure, it could be bull#@&%!, but a few levels above rumor.

The one "fact" came from an interveiw with a DEA agent. They asked why the DEA over the FBI, ATF, etc. He answered "In the DEA you can kill people with impunity". Ran a chill down my spine. But then again, who has never read a news report of drug cartel leaders being "assinated" by drug agent. These agents are usually of the country this happens in but are invariably "advised" by US DEA who are usually at the scene. Hmmm

Here, wrap a conspiracy theory around this. 15 years ago you could go into the hood and see 2 or 3 guys on nearly every corner slinging crack cocaine to a steady flow of customer. Now the corners are empty and you have 2 or 3 guys at a gas station. Easilly 20 times more cocaine was being moved then. But the government this assert that cocaine importation is at a record pace. Who? Where? Why the bull#@&%!? Shouldn't they claim victory? Well, when you claim victory, they usually stop funding the war.

it's all good, I only wish I could argue that well bro..keep up the entertaining roll going!

We say 'eh' as well over here.
Seriously, except we say it slower....................................................eh.

unklespaz-I take full responsibility. I was commenting about drugs and started to stream of conscious comment about things I had seen in the news that day. I have had a few days off and my fingers have felt exceptionally chatty. And I love debate. qc honored us with his presence and the debate became political. Politics can be taxing so I attempted to shift the argument to the great questions of life. I tried to analogize the philosophies of the Apostle Paul as stated in the book of Romans with the puking represented in the video that started this thread. I may not be the smartest guy around, but who else do you know that has even attempted such a thing? And then I reconciled those analogies with the story Pinocchio. New ground has been broke. I like the olympics. I like Canadians as well even if their heads move up and down instead of their jaws when they talk and they call everyone buddy or guy. My first encounters with people using drugs actually did occur in Canada on a school trip in my youth. Nowadays I only drink decaffeinated tea. Everything else is way too unstodgy. The stream of conscious is a many fork-ed thing.

Ice Ninjas would be cool.

too bloody... bloody.

Now, if they combined ice dancing with Tae Kwon Do..now THAT would be an awesome event.

Why is ice dancing called a sport? I think drugs were in someones system when the 'lets vote this a sport' form wuz being handed around to be signed.

oh....Coolfog...say hi to the Olympics for me. Been enjoying them very much. If you wave a bunch I'll see if I can pick you out.

I am with Coolfog on this one. How we go from a cinnamon saltine test and karate chopping melons to a confederacy debate is wack

The real estate market is showing signs of stabilizing. Not out of the woods yet, but there is some strong indications that the decline in prices may be nearing an end. With the lower prices many first time buyers are buying.
Our political situation has become insane with both of the major parties being hijacked by the extremes. Many of the talking heads on TV only exacerbate the deep divisions (good for ratings).
As long as it's more expedient for the 2 parties to try to beat the other party instead of actually working to solve the problems we face, I fear it will be a long, hard road we will be traveling.

i think the first thing we have to tackle is our political situation, where all of these questions of governance, which should be dispassionately debated, get moralized by our increasingly demented, self-deluded right wing. in other words, we're screwed, basically.

I am in Canada and we receive free medical here as well. Each province is different. In Ontario they tax you more for health care and in British Columbia where I am now they have premiums you pay monthly based on your income level. Which can be anywhere from zero to $50 monthly. For medical drugs you need they are subsidised again based upon your income. Dental is extra. My experiences have been very good. I feel that with the United States you have to tackle the Banking issues first, then the housing and real estate issues then the medical and education. Because the Unites States is so big it might be better to try a subsidised medical system state by state.

oh, don't play coy, elephant: the republican party of 1860 bears much more resemblance to today's democratic party than it does to today's republican party. ask dr. paul, even he admits this. the 1860 republican platform was: pro-federal gov expansion, pro-inflation/paper money (anti-gold), pro-tax hike, and anti-states' rights (for the time, relatively speaking). mainstream republicans still call themselves the party of lincoln because they understand he's very popular and an emblem of principled leadership. libertarians and lot of tea partiers recognize that they actually have very little in common with lincoln. also, i thought you didn't really identify as a republican--what gives?

anyway, as to your question about what school busing has to do with federal equal protection, come on. brown v. board of education, etc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desegregation_busing_in_the_United_States. personally, i'd rather the federal government didn't have to step into this local stuff. the problem is, a bunch of intractable #@&%!s in the south made it necessary for the feds to do so in 1954. i assume you agree that brown's rights were being infringed by local authorities, yes? because that's the so-called "liberal" decision that got that ball rolling (leading to the 1957 showdown in arkansas, blah blah). and once a power is grabbed by a government entity, it tends to stay grabbed. that's just the nature of ways things work.

and you still haven't really explained how god plays any serious role in the founding documents. as conservatives are so fond of pointing out these days, the constitution is our ruling document, and the declaration is more of a wartime rallying cry, designed to rouse the passions of the rabble against england. the repeated use of "god," "creator," and the like were meant to convince people that the colonists were asserting their natural ("god-given") rights--in direct opposition to the divine right of kings nonsense so many people bought into at the time. considering how often god is mentioned in the declaration, he's glaringly absent from the constitution. what does that tell you? to me, it seems pretty clear that while the founders may have believed in god themselves, they recognized that religion had no place in actual nuts and bolts governance.

I'm playing a 1st person shooter and I am a confederate soldier.
Good game altho the stalling to save the checkpoints gets irritating.
"Juarez: Bound In Blood"
Oh, yeah.
Drugs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqnuG8Kf3xk

For me a poignant song. Relevant to this hijacked topic? I don't know. Probably not.

Don't let Glenn Beck see the album cover.

I don't understand your point. Republicans love the declaration of independence. Lincoln was a republican. The equal protection clause was drafted by republicans. I don't see what equal protection of rights under the law has to to with the federal government telling people what schools they must send their children to. Liberal courts write meaning into words that isn't there allowing the govt to overstep.

but the declaration of independence is at the root of a lot of the problems neocons, teapartiers, et al have with the federal government. the equality-of-all spirit of the declaration is behind not only lincoln's civil war justification, but the 14th amendment's equal protection clause, which has been used to justify all manner of federal expansions that i'm sure you disagree with. and again, the only reason i bring this up is because of the two principal founding documents, the declaration is the one that mentions god a number of times.

I have never argued that the south wasn't a traitor to the union. This was not a civil war. Civility had broken down as it must in all wars. It was a war of civil rights. When a situation so morally wrong as slavery leads to the point of war, states rights be damned. The south was wrong.

Sput, I also have a problem with these things you mentioned. I just am of the opinion that in spite of the negatives, people/societies benefit from the concept of God. Its also a good idea to help assure that indivuals don't set themselves up to play that role. Jesus was a, let whom is without sin cast the first stone, guy. I do believe in tolerance. And that is why I believe there should be tolerance for something that ultimately leads to the betterment of society. I think that hypocritical judgmentalism is an entirely different argument. I will support you in that. I will spare us the biblical debate.

aint no god in the constitution (http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#god).

and as a conservative, you probably don't want to lean too hard on the declaration of independence, since that was the document used to justify the "war of northern aggression," as well as a number of subsequent infringements on states' rights (that whole "all men are created equal" bit seemed to guarantee certain minorities slightly more rights than they were getting south of the m-d).

wow. you really do have a lot of soap. the whole thing would be fine if everybody that believes in god at all, believed in the same interpretation of god, the same path to redemption, the same idea of will (free will or god's will), causality or predetermination. the jesus-y love thy neighbor god or the send joshua out to wipe out races of people kind of god. i like the Jiminyesus Christicket kind of god concept, but not everybody does. jesus told people to impoverish themselves and follow him and he would use his god powers to feed the multitudes and to heal the sick and destitute. doesn't that sound like the socialistic dependent social construct that the conservatives rail against? i don't think god is going anywhere as far as being in our founding documents and stuff. and we will no doubt continue to support israel for the same reason. well, my phone rang 20 minutes ago and now i'm completely in a different mindset so feel free to talk amongst yourselves.

Rankled my rancor.

Get the book today by up and coming political author I. E. Spews.

I sense confusion in places. You do understand that I am using puking in an allegorical manner? Puking allowed me to express my idea while still being relevant to the Salvia Challenge thread. I will try explain the allegory with allegory. Remember Jiminy Cricket? He was sent to be Pinocchio's inner voice, (at least in Disney's version). I don't want to subsidize moral relativism, but it may be possible that everyone has a different Jiminy Cricket. Following or not following that inner voice is the entire point. And if there is a Jiminy Cricket, there must be a voice telling you to do the other. That voice is the passions coming from the base emotions. And if there is conflict between these two voices, Choosing Jiminy is the higher ground. The other being the lower voice requires justification for being chosen. And since it can't be justified, the self lie must be propogated that Jiminy doesn't exist. And once you stop listening, (unless you are a sociopath, you can't completely stop) you can't hear Jiminy. In the original Pinocchio, he threw a hammer and smoosh went JIminy. Mayhem quickly ensued in the life of the donkey boy. I believe that Christ and Jiminy may be personifications of the soul. The soul is that one infinitely small speck of light in each of us that is completely pure and good. And as that voice is denied the soul becomes dimmer. And as that light dims we become more animal and less man. A society that becomes more animal breaks down and ceases to pursue civility which is the requisite for civilization. And if you recognize a higher and lower ordering of the will, is it not sensical to imagine a higher and lower order than where we happen to be right now? Though I can't argue for religion, the concept of God encourages humility, self introspection and confession, and a desire to reconcile our souls. Why is there conflict in our political world now? The souls have become dimmer. Humility is replaced with pride. Self deception occurs. Man becomes more animal.

I'm just trying to make a case for keeping the concept of God in our founding documents and in the government. I really am not trying to cast judgment through political affiliation, because the moral bankruptcy is pervasive on both sides of the aisle. I do believe this is going to be an issue because conservatives empowered by recent elections and grass root demonstration will make it one.

I think the last time I puked was around 1995. Does that make me an independent? I have no desire to be anyone else but me.

yeah, but that Krispy Kreme is sooooo good... just one more won't hurt, will it?

" humanity will be the end of us all!" Of course it would. This is obvious. Unless, there is transcendence that occurs, it eats itself. I suspect humanity has been destroyed and rebuilt many times. I do not call myself a Christian. I am more of a Christian sympathizer. I do not know there is God. I just hope so. One Nation Under God has made a pretty good run of it in the known history. I like the idea of a nation that looks inside itself and says I am going to do what I believe is right. That nation has been shown to prosper in spite of its humanity. I am not trying to proselytize anyone. I am trying to clarify those things we should learn merely from having lived.

Babar, if you haven't puked in years, you may be emerging as the Christ we have been told of. I guess you got as good a shot as anyone.

Same here, as long as folk don't insist what they believe is right should be my truth as well I will be ok with them.

Clarification....I do not accept Christianity for myself. I am fine that others do.

humanity will be the end of us all!

What about those who don't puke? Or haven't puked in years. Is there a long suppressed wanting to puke or maybe the puking has become a thing of the past?

We all view the world differently, based on what we have been taught and what we have experienced. What may seem completely right for one person can be totally wrong for another. I don't understand or accept Christianity. That does not make me less right or the person who does more right and vice versa. We each view the world through the lens we have. (I do believe there is a higher power though....I just perceive it in a different way)

In other words, regardless of the ravages caused by organized religions and those that use the medium for power, there is a huge benefit from living your life as if a higher being were looking over your shoulder. Those that do tend to be more intellectually honest with themselves. Of course this makes them hypocrites when they fail. And all have blind spots and lie to themselves from time to time. The difference is recognizing that struggle or denying it exists. Because recognizing the struggle provides proof of the existence of both good and evil. And that is unacceptable to the relativist.

You are missing the point. Of course people have different ideas of what is right. But you said people always do what they think is right. I am saying the struggle of the will is that fight where one does what THEY know is not right. This struggle varies from person to person and situation to situation. The difference between people is how far they will go to deny hearing that inner voice which tells them what (for them) is right and do the opposite. I think this problem affects politics severely on both sides of the aisle. Politicians do not recognize the humility they should feel having experienced the weakness of their own characters because their own sense of self-worth (or pride) hides the self deception. They have become elitists and fascists thinking they know better than the people they serve.

well, i didn't mean to ascribe a definition to the term "right". that is totally subjective concept. i don't think it's right to cut somebody's hand off for stealing but other people think it's totally right. i'm just saying that people act on what they think is right for themselves, for the moment. the dems and repubs claim to be doing and acting on what is right for the country. are they both right? they seem to think so.

Whoa there, respectfully sputnikov. Nobody always does what they believe is right. There is a duality of the spirit (or mind if you choose) that also exists in all of nature. (night/day left/right good/evil) We know its not right to eat that extra krusty kreme when we are already over weight. Or that extra drink. Or extra marital affair. Sure, one can justify that being fat, drunk, or libertine is good. It just depends on how intellectually honest we are with ourselves and how much puke we want to swim in. This is the struggle we either accept or deny.

I saw this really god aweful ben stein movie the other night making a similar completely logically flawed case for intelligent design.

i've always felt that there was only one kind of person: those that do what they believe is right. it's the motivations that vary.

woah, Im not sure I understand but that's my simplistic mind.... eh, I guess I've never been much for political discussions.... oh well

Have you ever noticed how if a conversation goes on long enough it will eventually end up contemplating the existence of God or the meaning of life? At some point in the middle of the night, that's where you end up. And this political debate will go there as well. This question does seem to follow party lines to some degree. And many conservative believe that the fact that our founding documents acknowledge God is important. And that may also be why apposing points of view hold less regard for those documents. And this morning I jotted down a few of the thoughts as a way of clarifying ideas in my own mind. I titled it...

A tale of two pukers (or, a case for god)

The way I see it, there are only two types of people. There are those people that puke, and those people that choose to puke. And there is an infinite variety of incarnation residing between the two extremes.

Most, find puking uncomfortable and potentially publicly embarrassing. Those people attempt some restraint, and thus puke less.

Conversely, those that choose to puke produce more puke.

For those that attempt at restraint, the puke itself becomes the hypocrisy in their lives. From that they derive the sensation of guilt. This guilt shores up the will for more restraint.

And the pain and suffering suffered for the cause of restraint are nullified by the lessening of pain as a consequence of less puke.

But all of this is the now lost, old time, common sense advice of don't poke yourself in the eye that our forefathers knew as a result of merely existing.

But, the pukers by choice lack the hypocrisy because they embrace the pain. And they revel in the pain, because it fuels the resentment they feel for having to puke at all. And they burn hot as stars and cease to exist in a brilliant flash.

Both make a case for god.

Those practicing restraint understand that life is both a lesson and a statement. They know the purpose of life is to learn that lesson and receive that statement.

The lesson is that actions have consequences. The lesson is to understand humility. The lesson is to believe intuitively that there is something higher than yourself and that there is redemption and correction on a higher order.

The statement is manifest as a result of humanity playing out its part as an example for all of creation to see.

But the pukers of choice ask how a god could exist that would allow such puking. So, they deny the existence of god and curse him at the same time. The contradiction remains hidden to them. Or rather they hide from it to escape the feeling of guilt.

And so if there are gods and they are higher, there would not be this burden of puking for them. For they would transcend the puking through the knowledge evidenced in the statement. And all of creation would marvel at humanity and the sacrifice they have made.

Here's where the money goes in lobbying and campaign contributions from the Health industry. Though the Democrats get about double what the Republicans get, they all still get #@&%!loads from the industry to have Congress protect their profits. Our "leaders" are bought and paid for. Grab your ankles America.
http://www.washclean.org/Library/HC-lobby2009.pdf

See? If Al Gore had been allowed to win: we would be in an alternate universe where the healthcare system actually payed us! Actually: that would be cool if it worked like a reverse mortgage. Have all the swindlers pay back all the people at a monthly rate?

Al Gore could have also flown around the earth 3 times fast and stopped global warming!

How's that for an attempt at psychedelic political humor.. arr arr?
I tell ya: this is regional and somewhat unrelated but the MMJ/medical marijane thing in our state is quite the fiasco. There are kids breaking int the dispensaries and shady opportunists setting up shop in good neighborhoods and attracting all kinds of wrong people. As much as the ideals sound great sometimes I wonder about where all this stuff is going? I mean, I'm as much down for the medication aspect and respect the bro who has a little puff on the weekends but...ya know it gets a little little crazy. I hear it's not even cool for the teens to try or partake in Amsterdam. Makes ya wonder.

...wasn't this a comedy-drug thread?

Oh! Yeah, hospital time is free, I've had extensive hair-lip surgey as a baby, teeth removed as a five year old and hernia op in '89, all free, no insurance needed, it isn't pay for health for anybody, you're in a car crash or yout ticker fails or whatever, you don't get turned away or anything, you're fixed up and no surprises at the end of it, maybe a limb or two missing...we haven't got a perfect system but it works and works well and when you leave hospital there's no bill what soever.
Now, if only our dental and mental health system worked as well... I'd be a crazy (former) mother-#@&%!er with GOOD teeth (told you we aint perfect)

I like the govt subsidised healthcare we have here, it works and works damn well and doesn't #@&%! you over tax wise, seriously. It's not free but it's damn cheap to visit a doctor and if you earn under a certain amount you get cheap prescriptions, not cheap medication, same meds but the govt subsidises it...I am currently unemployed and am eligible, when I worked and got crap wages I was eligible, when I was earning a decent amount I didn't mind at all paying full doctor's fees as I knew I had the money to cover it and not have to sacrifice any daily necessities nor worry about making insurance payments. There IS private healthcare which is naturally gonna be better as getting minor or elective surgery is going to happen straight away (non essential surgery is still free, you are just put on a waiting list)
Not sure why people aren't looking at other countries who are making it work to see the framework in effect rather than run thru scenarios, if a back water hick country like ours has been doing this for nearly a century, surely others can too.
(Well..not TOTALLY hick, but I am sorry about us splitting the atom, I know a lot of folk here are proud of that, I aint, I'm more proud of the fact that we invented the jet boat and pavlova..)

The US ranks number 37 in health care quality, but we are number 2 in what we spend percentage wise of GDP. We suck.

well well, I guess I need to get a application

To give you an idea. The CEO of Aetna made over $24 million last year. The average family paid $13,000 in health insurance premiums. That means over 1800 families had to pay just so that guy could make that amount of money. And that's just the CEO. There are many other in the company that make a #@&%! load of money as well. And that's just one company. We are being #@&%!ed.

IE: just fyi, I wasn't roping you in with anyone. I was joking about the teabaggers. I think it's similar to the bigmac/lewinsky association with slick willie and I do see similarities between some of the glossy sales of the clinton era and this administration.

Eh, with Rush, he's ok but I see him more in the lines of an entertainer than a real powerhouse, or I have trouble taking him or the liberal commentators seriously.

Healthcare, I'm not sure anyone has right... it's kinda a in or out thang. Either you get pretty good coverage with a good company, or not so much. In my poor days I didn't have any for a good 10 years. I really feel for the people that are working in a small business or have crummy insurance, it's a good way to end up scrawed.....

yeah, since the VA is a not-for-profit entity, i feel much less like i'm on a revolving door basis with my doctors. So far, i have had nothing but awesome experiences there, as hospitals and doctors go. Most unlike my experiences with Kaiser Permanente.

About 10 years ago I worked at a very large hospital in the IT department. One day the secretary for the Chief Financial Officer had MS Word crash on her in the middle of preparing an important document. I uninstalled then reinstalled Word and brought up the document she was working on. It was the proposed bonus plan for the the top 27 people in the hospital. $17 million dollars total for 27 folks who were already being paid very nice salaries. And that was 10 years ago, I am sure those numbers are much greater today. There's where a lot of your money goes. Same with the insurance companies. A whole lot of people have to pay high insurance and hospital bills so a handful can make amazing amounts of money. We have been scammed for years.

I have less of a problem with the insurance companies than the hospitals. I bonked my elbow once and it filled up with blood the size of a golf ball. I was freaking thinking my arm was going to explode. Draining the blood off with a syringe and getting xrays (negative by the way) ended up costing me $1500. And I paid for it in seven separate bills. Why could the hospital just not sent me one bill? I couldn't tell when it was going to end. Recently, I went to the emergency room with chest pains. Fortunately, I was all right. At one point I complained of a headache. The doctor offered me Excedrine. My wife right beside me had Excedrine in her purse and I took that. They charged me $18 for my wife to medicate me. The hospitals and doctors charge what they want because they know insurance will pay it off.

Damn, Bratty, I hope they do you right. My experience with medical while I was in the Navy was very bad. It was the number one cause of sour feelings as I left.

a perfect idea! what could be a better way to deal with this issue? i have health care through the government (VA) and i love it. of course, i had to pay in with 6 years of my life but that's all water over the dam now. but if i break my leg, i go in there and they fix it. right now, i have a broken liver. they're going to fix it. it's pretty sweet, i must say.

Health Care reform is needed. The crap being put forth in Congress by both parties is nothing more than protecting the industry that pours millions into campaign coffers and hires family members. There is no competition in the world of health care insurance. The simple most direct way to achieve some competition is to allow folks to buy into Medicare. Yes a public option. Not mandated, no penalties if you choose to not buy in or are happy with the insurance you now have. It costs the taxpayers nothing as it will be paid for by the premiums paid. That sort of public option scares the #@&%! out of insurance companies.

My observation is that people who criticize Rush are those that have never spent anytime listening to him other than the lies or twists that are presented by other media. I have watched and listened since his tv show. I disagree with him on war and trade, but I know he is a decent fellow who is in favor of equal opportunities for all folks. I got a kick a while back whilst in rabid debate with a liberal friend. Though I am surely not a picture of fitness, this woman had a few pounds on me. I didn't mock her, but chuckled inside as between tokes on the righteous doobie that was being passed around, she had the audacity to call Limbaugh a fat drug addict who hated women. I have heard him speak. He doesn't hate women. He does have a distaste for those that vehemently hate men. Good for him. And Mr. Bratty makes a good point. Rush occasionally gives advice to those who get to stressed out from the political debate. He says, take a week off from the news (including him). Because really, the bottom line is how are you being affected right now. We have the ability within ourselves to be happy and enjoy life. We can set these things on our terms. I don't blame people at all for shutting out this political war. But I will debate as I have strength. I don't have the energy to debate this health care thing in detail right now, but this is what the tea party is all about, whether you believe it or not. I currently have very good health care for me, my wife, and stepson. And I pay out the ass for it. Would I like it to be cheaper? Of course. But all of you must understand that covering everybody (under penalty of goddamn imprisonment!) by the biggest beauracracy in the world is a bad idea. When I was younger, I had no want or need for health insurance. Even though I was earning barely above the poverty level, I had always saved enough in my emergency fund to pay my medical bills. I would have been up #@&%!s creek if I was forced to pay for insurance. If this bill had passed, my choices and quality of health care would decrease and the cost would go up. There are better ways to deal with this issue. But these damn democrats have done everything they can to sneak/force this bull#@&%! in against a majority opinion that some here slander. God bless those wretched (fearing for their jobs) republicans that stood up against this monstrosity. We had a similar thing here in NC. Our local guv in the dead of night snuck through a lottery bill. I am not personally against the lottery. But it needs to be left up to the people of this state. And as is the case in every state, the money that was supposed to go to education was robbed. Education lottery my ass. Sneaky lying bastards all of them. YOu can refer to the tea partyers with all the names you want. YOu can ascribe all the foul motivations you want. The truth is the change being pushed by this admin is socialist in every way and it is going to affect us all.

As for aliens: anybody else read about my airport? Satan and aliens, and kidnappings oh my!!!!

http://newsflavor.com/opinions/mystery-surrounding-denver-international-airport/

Well, it's funny, a lot of this is upbringing and of course personal preference. I for one: imagine freedom fry eatin: baws hogg greasy varmits when I imagine the tea baggers. Essentially an army of Rush limbaugh kkk good ol boys that would love to see Bushes forever. Scary scary, and I know that's just a freakish perception, but they seem a little too too rightcentric.. makes me want to type dill pickles too..no reason in particular.

Middle of the road is good. More or less, I think that despite fear the leftists are more centric than during the Clinton years. It's like a really slow mo yo-yo wreck.

i just wish the flying saucers would come and give us all something else to focus on.

I knew you were serious. That was the part that almost convinced me that everything I know is wrong. I need to make sure my parents don't get a hold of this thread, they will be converted for sure. They think satan is tits.

i hope you didn't take that part about satan comically. i was deadly serious there.

Qualcomm: go get em tiger..that's a somewhat unintentionally funny post. Eh, I'm a liberal, what can I say.

well, i swore i wouldn't mention any names...

you're friends with dennis hopper?

i have this friend. at one time he was an acid-dropping san fran hippy. at some point after his cocaine addiction he became a "conservative". all this happened way before we met. i think he likes hanging around with me because i represent his heart of hearts. he asks for chances to roadie for me and once i gave him the role of "executioner" at one of our alice cooper trib gigs. Anyways, for my efforts, he bombards me with these teabag, anti-obama, god/guns/gold, email FWDs, like 5 a day. he knows where i stand politically and we've had many civil conversations about it, and it's been pretty cool. Until recently. now he's on this kick that "obama is tearing our country down... founding fathers... mandatory health insurance... take my guns... what are we gonna do???" kind of #@&%!. i mean, he's about two steps behind writing his own manifesto and going into the local IRS office with his precious handguns and making headlines himself. not to mention the awful email FWDs are now coming at a fevered pace. it's sad, watching a guy scare the #@&%! out of himself like that. i personally refuse to live like that. life is too friggin short. there are many more things to enjoy then there are things to be afraid of. noone gets out of here alive. have as happy of a life as you can. #@&%!ing move if you hate it here so much. just move to somewhere you can be happy. i love it here, personally. life is good!

i'm a crank myself.

Well thanks QC. I'm probably more in the curmudgeon line anyway.
Your comments below get to my point about where was all the outrage, I mean serious outrage prior to Obama coming into office. Though folks should be outraged at how our government has and is currently conducting itself, it just smells fishy to me that all of a sudden this "party" has suddenly become upset about how things have been going. These folks should have been pissed for many years prior.

i think neither beer nor babar are stodgy. all's i meant, babar, was that it *sounded* stodgy to reply the way you did. honest. sounded a little provincial, which i am quite certain you are not. no one who makes music like yours could be either stodgy or provincial.

no offense, i.e., but i think your views are mainly full of it. i don't think you're a racist, and honestly, it's none of my business and i wouldn't care if you are. everyone is racist to some extent, and i personally find the popular game of "guess who the secret racist is" to be disgusting and counterproductive: we have plenty of overt, malicious racists to deal with without going all thought police on people. so, i'll take you at your word that you were upset with gw bush and cheney as much as you are with obama. but so what, anyway? you're one guy; a fragment of anecdotal evidence that pales beside what i see in the news these days: where were all these people before obama took office? bush's assaults on the constitution and the coffers were unprecedented, and we saw nary a protest from any so-called conservatives. and don't point me to some chicken-#@&%! local story about a 20-man march in bum#@&%! arkansas in 2006. i'm talking about something on the scale of what we've seen since obama was elected. the tea party didn't form, not in any serious way, until obama took office. and interestingly, it formed before he had spent or even asked for much of the money they're complaining about his spending.

i accept that this racism charge is theoretical--it's just a theory i happen to agree with. all i have to go on are various signs i have seen at the rallies, interviews with movement retards i have seen on youtube and read in the papers, and the general timing of the movement's birth. fine, that's all circumstantial, and if racism were a crime and this were court case, as a juror i'd have to vote to acquit. HOWEVER! the thing is, i'm not concerned about this racism because it offends my delicate yankee sensibilities; i care because it makes the teabaggers' platform/position completely hypocritical and full of #@&%!. just like they were before they defected from the republican party.

by the way, about this idea that obama's spending is way higher than bush's, a few points of correction:
1) a significant portion of 2009's spending (which is cited by drudge, fox, and other propaganda outlets as "belonging" to obama) is carryover from bush's spending--i.e., part of his budget, not obama's.
2) we still don't know how much bush's war in iraq is going to cost us. and if you have any intellectual honesty, you have to lay the total cost, until we bug the last #@&%!ing soldier out of there, at the feet of the retard from texas. (by the way, what's your address? i've got some cat #@&%! i'd like to mail to you for helping to elect that jackoff.)
3) it's a little rich to complain about stimulus spending for a situation obama inherited from bush. there's little reason to believe that bush wouldn't have spent a great deal to clean up this mess if he had had a third term. basically any president who listens to fed advisers would. and that would be, um, all of them since woodrow wilson. i mean, come on, elephant! obama's financial team is completely middle-of-the-road american politics. summers, geithner, all of them. these are the guys he's listening to, and they're hardly socialists.

also, i think you sort of called me a "lib" back there! okay, i guess that's better than being a misinformed teabagger or a phony conservative, but let me state once again for the record that i donated to ron paul's campaign. i like that cute little rooster, and he's an actual, principled conservative who could have saved the republican party from the drooling band of proto-fascist mouthbreathers who've taken it over. because i do think it's important for our representives to have this very basic conversation (spend vs. not spend/expand govt vs. contract govt). i think some situations call for spending/expansion, and others call for saving/contraction, and it's important that both sides of the argument be intellectually honest. i firmly believe that the "conservative" side of this argument has been intellectually corrupt for about 25 years now, hijacked by religion and moral prigishness, for the simple reason that it's easy to win elections when you paint yourself as the god-fearing morally upstanding alternative to your degenerate/atheist/homo/socialist opponent. and i think the ballsucking teabag movement represents the worst, most intellectually corrupt splinter of this whole conservative implosion of the last quarter century. funny how that bull#@&%! "obama is a socialist" meme started with the mccain campaign, isn't it? wow, what a coincidence the teabaggers are shouting the same thing. could it be that they're largely composed of the same #@&%!s? naahhhh....

thank you, and may satan reign his black, fiery sperm over the united states of america.

Interesting read; seems like reasonable gripes but quite an overreaction. And the guy is a prick for aiming his plane at a building full of people.

wow.....but is it reason to fly a plane into a building?
The #@&%! going on in our country has been brewing for a long time. Term limits must be enacted. Responsibility must come before greed. Obama didn't cause the mess we are in. he may or may not be going about fixing the mess correctly, but the #@&%! he inherited from many years of really bad decisions cannot be any easy thing to fix.

whoa. have you guys read the IRS plane crasher's suicide manifesto? pretty trippy stuff. here it is:
http://crooksandliars.com/node/35036

nah, i don't buy any of that ie. really,we were in deep trouble before the elections.

and this federalist approach doesn't convince me either; throws out a couple of hundred of years of constitutional thought and replaces it with a take that suits the short term interest of those that purport to advocate for a smaller fed government. elevates the "founding fathers" to some sort of infallible prophets and then cherry picks their thoughts ... the US is much bigger and diverse these days and the world is much smaller. things have changed, and much of the change has been for the better....

nah, i don't buy any of that ie. really,we were in deep trouble before the elections.

and this federalist approach doesn't convince me either; throws out a couple of hundred of years of constitutional thought and replaces it with a take that suits the short term interest of those that purport to advocate for a smaller fed government. elevates the "founding fathers" to some sort of infallible prophets and then cherry picks their thoughts ... the US is much bigger and diverse these days and the world is much smaller. things have changed, and much of the change has been for the better....

Everybody inside the beltway is spending money like we are made of the stuff. Bush and a Republican Congress before and Obama and a Democratic Congress now. Pretty much all of them are clueless. Remember a whole bunch of this money was authorized by the previous administration and the Congress at the time. They were all asleep at the wheel then and are even more asleep now. I have no problem with putting Federal money into real stimulus. Something had to be done to fix a massive problem caused by inept leaders, both governmental and in the private sector. It's our money...if it's going to be spent, spend it on things that will get people back to work. GM and Chrysler? #@&%! em. They made #@&%! for years and paid the execs way too much for making #@&%!. The small businesses who got clobbered by Wall Street excess and incompetent government...yes help those folks...they provide more jobs anyway. Yes...all incumbents need to be tossed, including those who all of a sudden claim to have seen the light but are really trying to figure out a way hold on to their current office, so they rally behind the Tea Party folks claiming to be something new and special. Smoke and mirrors to grab votes. Term limit 'em.

"and i don't think the tea party does either;" Wrong. Still, it is impossible to compare Obama to anyone else since he in one year has racked up more wasted money than all of the previous presidents combined. And conservatives did complain when Bush wasted our money. I remember me and my brother both chanting, read my lips no new Bushes, when we got mad about Bush Senior breaking his tax promise. We didn't really like W either, its just the alternatives were Gore and Kerry, losers both. The libs are all about promising stuff to people and creating dependency that assures more democrat votes. I am not an anarchist, (not anymore) but the federal (not national, its a federation of states, right?) gubberment has been overstepping its constitutional boundaries since Roosevelt, and now the current administration is trying to just throw that document out the window. If you really think this is a racial thing, remember, Obama has a boatload of white morons, from Biden to Pelosi by his side. I am not convinced that if something happened to Obama, that we wouldn't be even worse off with Borrowing Joe Biden. The tea partiers have one thing right. We need to throw all of the incumbents out. Our gubberment is sick and corrupted at all levels.

Where was the Tea Party anger when Bush/Cheney shot the wad and lost the surplus we had. Not too mention getting us into Iraq, #@&%!ing up environmental laws, relaxing financial rules and oversight...lalalalalala. I've been fed up for years.

this isn't the first time ie and qc have butted heads on politics....
i'm probably more with qc in my views, but of couse i feel and have felt the disconnect with the gov and a frustration with our system.

the tea party strikes me as complete bull#@&%!, though, primarily because it didn't spring up until obama was in office and a #@&%!load of money was squandered by the bush/cheney admin.

i have no prob with the gov spending money, and i don't think the tea party does either; it's about what that money is spent on.

Though I am not a Tea Party person I certainly am frustrated with the Congress' inability to do just about anything. Both parties pretty much suck right now, too busy protecting their special money interests, trying to make the other party look bad (they don't need help in that department) and worrying about reelection. Health Care could have been solved in an afternoon. Allow businesses and individuals to buy into Medicare. Not a mandated or forced into thing. Paid for by the premiums paid. Don't like it than stick with your insurance. And those who don't have insurance? How about we stop sending billions of dollars to countries so they will be our friends. Take care of Americans first. Drug costs? We should be paying what the drug companies charge Canada, instead of that stupid #@&%! years ago where Congress nitwits wanted to buy back the drugs we just sold them.
Airport security....it's not little old ladies with knitting needles trying to take down planes. The rest should be pretty easy to figure out.
I do love beer.

So I ramble a couple of off hand remarks as I am want to ramble, and qc goes straight to the libs last ditch argument. The race card. Look in your heart, just because it sounds good doesn't make it true. A lot of white people are sick of being tagged as racist and recipients of white privilege. Its just not true. Not anymore. And the Tea Partiers (not teabagger, you may be confusing them with deviant sex practice, but I can understand your confusion) are not (yet) aligned with any political group. Yes, the neocons may be trying to wrestle them into republican support, but basically these people were unified by the idea that the healthcare bill would have been the most massive expansion of government ever. And when the guv got in the business of buying auto companies and banks, people started saying, enough. The fed is like the blob, a gelatinous mass that keeps growing exponentially. I agree that the federal guv has a role in protecting the safety of its citizens. Its constitutional. But the damn government is going to put political correctness over the safety and convenience of passengers. I have being saying the threat is overstated anyway, and I blame my fellow conservatives for that. That is why I defected to the Libertarians. I like the word stodgy and I support its use where ever it it applies. But I know the Klunj. Stodgy, he is not. He is just someone who has been around enough to know what he really likes.

I had more than enough. Others can indulge where they see fit. Plus I really do love beer. The Trappistes Rochefort #10 Belgian Ale I am having right now is just perfect.

i can relate with babar. i too have settled on beer and wine now that i've advanced in years. i'm not adverse to trying other things but these days i'm not really seeking them out ...

In my earlier years I tried just about everything you can name. I have no issues with anyone today wanting to try salvia, qat or whatever. Knock your socks off...I certainly did at one time. All I'm saying is for me beer is best for me at this present time in my life.

Stodgy??? So little you know of my past my friend.

No government will support anything that can't be turned into profits.

That said: I don't see why the government is so concerned with a substance that still seems fairly harmless.

haaaaa, oh that's rich. Only here.

I haven't attempted qat or salvia but I think they're in a different ballpark. It's like comparing rap to folk music or something. Isn't qat supposed to be a speedy weird thing that's highly addictive? I read a book recently where this guy described Yemen as a drug addicted province with a population that's pretty much been reduced to junkies and poverty due to the stuff. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun to try but it doesn't sound like a good coffee substitute. DEA rumors are always fun, and pretty close to conspiracy theories from what I remember. Go figure.

I got a lot of soap. It seems I might have hijacked this perfectly innocent vomit video thread for political purposes. Sorry about that to all the people who choose to puke. But, the qc has made some interesting comments that I would like to reply to. Just as soon as I get back from sk8ing. Concrete is dry today.

that's a lot of soapboxing in one post. i didn't mean to imply that beer is a concept that can trap you; i did mean to imply that responding to a post about wackier drugs with "i'll stick to beer/scotch/whatevs, thank you very much" sounded a bit stodgy to me. as for the market dictating airport security, we tried that already and it didn't turn out so well. course, while i'm not too impressed with the tsa's methods, i would say that preventing planes full of people from exploding or hitting buildings is a worthy use of the government's time. and as for the tea baggers, they're about 75% neocons who conveniently found libertarianism after a black man was elected president.

I was spending some time with this girl in Kenya and some of her friends (women) were sitting cross-legged in the hallway of the apartment with branches from a tree, rabidly chewing the leaves. I am not sure what they were. She gave me one leaf to chew and I really couldn't tell any effects. Had a great time shortly thereafter, though. I don't feel trapped by the concept of beer. I feel liberated, as does the beer upon the act of pissing. I like the libations and the liberating of beer. Beer is a rent only commodity. Did you hear about random hand scanning for trace explosive chemicals at the airport? I am tired of being told that I am being terrorized by those that are terrorizing me. Time to get the guv out of the act and let airlines handle their own security. Let the market dictate the protection level. I don't want to try any hallucinogens. I want a cold double IPA. Tea Partyers, don't let the neocons take your momentum. They talk the talk and spend to walk. Children, listen to your parents. They know the beers they speak of. Benefit from their wisdom and honor them your whole lives. I'm going sk8ing tommory. Wazup? All in all, I'd rather kiss a chicken than lick a toad. So speaks Sir Edmund Hillary Trunk and the Over-Eaters, a five piece combo from Poughkeepsie specializing in a genre they refer to as Carmichael, a fusion of brass instruments, electric guitars, and circuit bent kitchen appliances designed for aiding and abetting pursuers of fast motion sappling germination films. And I thought YOU were high. Buh.

don't be trapped by old concepts

I'll stick with beer. I tried many amusement aids way back when, but beer seems to work best for me.

Whoa! Get this! Appearently, people from Yemen and Ethiopia like to chew the khat. Since it has been made illegal and is a major target of drug enforcement (bust a user and get him to flip on al Queda [yeah, right!]), they are more apt to turn to Islam and as a result, become radicalized. Seems like if khat was legal, we would be reducing the threat of domestic terrorism. But then again, when did the DEA every care about anything other than arresting and abusing people? I truly believe that a DEA agent would let an al-Queda bomber go free if they could get a drug bust out of the deal. Truly.

Just reading up on qat (or khat). Freidman may not have been telling tales. In some circumstances, it is cultural taboo to refuse to chew qat if offered, even if you are not into it. To them, it is no different than drinking coffee.

I tried saliva once. While it was most bizzarre, I could not call the experince pleasant. Now I want to try qat. Thomas Friedman of the New York Times says he has been chewing in while visit Yemen - but that could be a joke. It is described as a mild hallucinogenic.

just for you guys... http://www.comedycentral.com/tosh.0/2009/06/04/tosh0-presents-extreme-salvia-challenge/